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Unread 07-27-2005, 12:10 AM   #1
John D.
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Default 1938 Hk - Sn 9938 (Tom A's new "baby")

I have to warn you â?? this is a LONG thread!!!

Below, you will find an example of a 1938 HK I was asked to verify for Tom A. In short, it was a pleasure to do so, for a number of reasons. First â?? Krieghoff Lugers are somewhat scarce altogether, and many collectors are thrilled to have one or two in their Luger collection. Second â?? any time I am asked to verify a specimen â?? which finally turns out to be an unmolested example, I get excitedâ?¦

For that â?? and to 1938 HKs specifically, there are darned few to compare. For example â?? Mr. Gibson in his excellent research and book - owned a 1938 HK serial number 10038 which was extensively photographed and dissected into the base of his core research regarding this variation. However was that representative of â??allâ? 1938 HKs?

Since that time â?? I would offer that, in fact â?? with a total production of 50 â??1938â? chamber dated Krieghoffâ??s, there are in fact â?? two variations: One variation of 1938s included serial numbers of less then 10000 and the second variation above 10000. More to the point, in the two â??1938â? variations (remember â?? there are fewer then 25 known to exist of all 1938 HKs), there was a distinct, yet subtle changeover in terms of proofs, placements, numbering, serialization and markings during that miniscule production run.

As well, since there are so few dedicated HK collectors in the world today who own multiple Krieghoffs, and fewer still, several within the same HK variation â?? these subtle changes in a single â??chamber dateâ? run are often difficult, if not impossible to discern. All too often I see a collector with â??oneâ? single example question the authenticity of another example if theirs does not match â??exactlyâ? what they see on their HK or might have gleaned from Mr. Gibson.

So with that disclaimer â?? I offer up Mr. Armstongâ??s 1938 HK as a learning experience and as well â?? I ask you to feel free to compare it with one of my 1938 HKs in the Lugergallery in the sub-10000 variation (found here: http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugergallery/jdhk38 ).

As I did â?? I hope you find it most interesting (Iâ??ll try to compare Tomâ??s and my pre-10000 1938 to one of my post 10000 1938s in a future thread â?? but, I donâ??t want to hi-jack this thread and thesis).

1938 HK SN 9938

The left side shows barrel wear and highpoint wear on the side-plate, typical of being carried in the holster:



The right side is typical HK at that era: Strawed ejector, trigger (right side mag release is fire blued):



Front view showing frame digits (2mm) and the properly crowned muzzle.



The Chamber date "1938". The digit formation, baseline, offsets and other indicators are "right on" to other "1938" HKs personally inspected, including 3 that have a light "8" on the right side..



Right Receiver: Stamps of this production era run include acceptance of both the frame (as seen on the rail), and the progression of the following: LWaA Stage 1 (early); Proof mark; LWaA Stage 2 (Mid) (Of particuliar note is the LWaA Stage 2, which Gibson theorizes may have been a different inspector. See below.) (variations noted in 1938 production). On the rail, is again found the LWaA Stage 2.



You can see the diffences in the LWaA Stage 2 (Mid) found on SN 9938 (picture above) to another 1938 HK (sn 9221 - next picture) which has the LWaA Stage 2 (Early) here:





Frame Serial Number. Note that Krieghoffâ??s do not have a letter suffix. Rather, in the Commercial Series, you will note a â??Pâ? prefix. As this is military issue, no prefix or suffix exists:



Left Receiver Serial Numberr. Note that these were hand stamped, and often times, the baseline will not be aligned. I also liked this photo, as it shows the distinctive trigger profile of HKs.



(continued in the next postâ?¦)
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Unread 07-27-2005, 12:10 AM   #2
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Sideplate â?? inside view. There are several things to note on this piece â?? including the placement of the two LWaA Inspection marks (1mm) and the military serialization. During the â??Sâ? series Krieghoffâ??s, the placement of the Military serialization changed from external to internal. This change is one of the factors that designate an Early S to a Mid-S Series. This piece was, of course â?? post â??Sâ?, and therefore shows the later style:



Barrel markings. On HKs, these marks in both orientation and order MAY change. These are correct for this period of manufacture - except to note that Gibson states that the majority of barrels will carry the serial number. While many do - based on my research in this range, I'm not certain I endorse that characterization of barrel serialization in this range of HKs. The following photo depicts the â??gaugeâ? (as 8,81) and the LWaA 2 acceptance. As production proceeded through HK in later years, the orientation and the proofs/serial numbers would change or be omitted.



TriggerThe correct last two digits on the Trigger (location under the sideplate).



Typical colorization of the fire-blued right side of the magazine release.



Front Sight detail



GESCHIERT On this Krieghoff, the stamp for â??GESCHIERTâ? is not as worn as later dates, which gives the Krieghoff collector a clue as to when the frame was manufactured and marked. Noted as a Die Type â??Bâ? as recorded by Gibson. As well, in this picture - you can pick up the tell-tale of the flame hardening of the frame ramps.



(continued in the next postâ?¦)
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Unread 07-27-2005, 12:11 AM   #3
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Rear Frame Well. The machining marks are unique to Krieghoff manufacturing. Some will try to draw similarities between ERFURT and SIMSON given the theory of the â??same toolingâ? and milling machinery - but in fact, Krieghoff used their own pattern, on their own â??newly designedâ? machinery. The HK process gave faster production, better Q&A with a superior finish then either ERFURT or SIMSON (credit to H. Krieghoff who engineered the design change). Therefore, the HK process is readily able to be identified:





Front Frame Well. Again, the machining marks are unique to Krieghoff:





Witness Marks This 1938 HK - sn: 9938 has no witness marks, but 2 are noted as having witness marks.





Frame Internals The hold open, properly proofed. Another area where I disagree with Mr. Gibson. This part is not serialized â?? and frequently, found NOT be serialized in this serial range:





Sear Bar. This sear bar is NOT numbered, simply proofed correctly. Given the other tell-tales of this 1938 - this is correct, although counter to Mr. Gibson's theory on sear bar numbering.





Toggle, Train, and Top End Condition of the chamber top, breech block and middle toggle link. Note the distinctive HK polishing methods.




(continued in the next postâ?¦)
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Unread 07-27-2005, 12:11 AM   #4
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Forward Breech Block. This area has several correct proofs/inspection marks â?? alongside the Military serialization. These are from this period only â?? and may be different on your Krieghoff, depending on the variation and date of production.




On the center link, please note the serialization in addition to the LWaA stamp




Rear Toggle link and coupling Link. Please note the LWaA stamp locations on both and correct serialization on the toggle link. This is somewhat consistent throughout the HK manufacturing years




An interesting Axel pin. Rather than bearing the two-digits of the serial number, this Axel Pin is rather proofed with a 1mm LWaA 2. Not the first time noted for HKs, it is uncommon.




Toggle marking: HK went through several variations of their toggle stamp. For 1938 HKs, although limited in verified examples, it would be â??C-2â? as noted by Gibson. No variations of the toggle stamp exist for 1938 production that have been verified, to date.




Take Down The distinctive "HK" take down. Note the strong straw.




The Take down lever detail. Notice the correct, for that production period HK, military serialization.





(continued in the next postâ?¦)
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Unread 07-27-2005, 12:12 AM   #5
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Firing Pin Notice the relieved firing pin. This is correct. You will notice the firing pin and the retainer are both correctly proofed in this example.




Safety. Internally â?? within the frame, you will note the LWaA stamps on both the Thumb Lever (left) and the internal flat of Safety Lever. These are correct for this period of HK manufacture â?? but changed as production progressed.




Detail of the proofed Thumb Lever.




Magazine Release location â?? inside, rear towards the magazine:




~~~~

You can see the complete photo Gallery of this 1938 here........
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Unread 07-27-2005, 12:21 AM   #6
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Great teaching tool John, thanks very much for adding it!

Ed
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Unread 07-27-2005, 12:36 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Edward Tinker
Great teaching tool John, thanks very much for adding it!

Ed
I'm guessing Tom will be worried if I can get the danged thing back together after the pics....



Thanks Ed!!!

John D.
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Unread 07-27-2005, 04:05 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by John D.
I'm guessing Tom will be worried if I can get the danged thing back together after the pics....



Thanks Ed!!!

John D.
If you have any problems getting it back together remember,Don't force it---just get a bigger hammer!!!
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Unread 07-27-2005, 04:15 AM   #9
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John, I need a HK take down lever#38, got one for sale?
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Unread 07-27-2005, 08:51 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by pipeman45
....Don't force it---just get a bigger hammer!!!


Also - Hi JTD..!

Unfortunatly - I'm not a dealer or anything, so I don't really have a supply of spare HK parts. Like you and most everyone - just an avid collector. But, unlike others - I have a narrow area of collecting "expertise"

However - I might be able to find one numbered "38" for you today...

Best to you - and Welcome to the Lugerforum - especially the Krieghoff area!!

John D.
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Unread 07-28-2005, 12:29 AM   #11
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John D, was busting Tom a little bit,(take note to his lever in pic, I really do'nt need one)
........... Really nice HK tom, all matched but take down lever..........


Still wiping the drool off my shirt. BEEEUTIFULL PISTOL Tom. Congrats on your find
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Unread 07-28-2005, 08:39 AM   #12
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Even a blind hog occasionally finds an acorn.

Tom A.
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Unread 11-19-2005, 12:20 PM   #13
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Tom A. and John D.,

I will ask the ugly question...Is this a refinished HK luger ?

Reasons I ask :

1. The front frame photo shows two (2) deep dents (along the left side of the photo view...) with bluing well into the bottom of the dents. The stamped "9938" also show no slight bulging of the metal around any of the numbers struck.



2. The top of the toggle has very coarse sanding lines runing across the long axis of the toggle. Is this common for a 1938 HK...or shoud the finish be a lot more polised ?



3. Two of the three acceptance stamps on the upper right side receiver do not have much depth and definition left. Could this be an indication of some refinishing in this area ?

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Unread 11-20-2005, 06:18 PM   #14
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Pete,

It looks buggered to me.

Tom A
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Unread 11-20-2005, 07:09 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tom A
Pete,

It looks buggered to me.

Tom A
Tom,

Are you saying you want to sell me the 1938 in the pics (it's yours )???? OK - I'll buy it....

Hey Pete,

The frame front, center link and stamps are correct.. So, I'll stand by my original analysis of Tom's piece. Further - can you point me to a single HK with "slight bulging of the metal around any of the numbers struck"?

The center toggle is correct...

The right reciever/rail is absolutley correct. I'd get worried if they were deeper struck on that 1938. Ask me why someday

John D.
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Unread 11-20-2005, 07:43 PM   #16
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damn, and I will see Tom in two weeks, and was hoping he'd sell it to me as a shooter.


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Unread 11-21-2005, 12:27 PM   #17
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Hi John D.,

I looked at your 1938 HK photos in the Member Gallery...

1. This is a side photo of your piece. The acceptance stamps appear to me quite well struck and deep.



2. The top of your toggle has some sanding lines...just not as pronounced as on Tom's piece. Tom's toggle seem to show sanding lines in only one direction. From you photo, it appears your toggle's sanding pattern seems to change direction at the two little rounded sections that engaged with the breechblock. Tom's does not. Cannot be sure from the resolution of your photo...though.



3. The front of your HK has a contoured radius between the transition from the front of the frame to the trigger guard. Tom's luger has a "flat" section/transition and taken with the lack of depth of some numbers and the bluing in the 2 deep dents, I thought some of Tom's luger may have been redone.



I have seen only a handful of HK's in person...did not know one would not see an bulging of the number stamps on the front of frame. If I recall, Gibson does not show any/many photos of the fronts of frames of the military run of HK's.. Thanks for the tip. My # 2122 S-code has well defined numbers struck and you can see the "bevel" inside each number cut. Mine does not show any bulging but there is a minor high spot or two left from the finishing on the gun...but definitely not bulging.

One final set of questions...Is it very rare to have a 1938 without a barrel serial number ? Have you tracked 1938's with and without numbers on the barrel ? Your piece has the barrel serialled; Tom's does not.
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