Worn out toggle assembly ?

Stu · 10-12-2002, 04:12 PM

Hi all. I wonder if I could get some advice about a Mitchell / AIMCO luger I just acquired.

There seems to be more play in the toggle assembly than I'd expect, mainly casued by slop in the toggle axis pin.

In an effort to quantify this I took some measurements from the back of the barrel to the front of the breechblock. This was done with feeler gauges from underneath.

The results were as follows;

Assembled toggle without firing pin.
Pushed toggle assembly forward towards barrel.
Measured gap between back of barrel and front of breechblock as .017 in / .423 mm

Replaced firing pin to provide rearward pressure to toggle assembly. Measured gap, as before, at .033 in / .838 mm.

This gives me a rough guide to the total play as .016 in, (1/62") or .415 mm.

Is this a serious issue requiring rebuild by AIMCO or just reasonable play in the assembly ?

Any comments and suggestions welcomed !

unspellable · 10-13-2002, 07:43 PM

You need another measurment. Take the measurement you just did with the striker (firing pin) in place and cocked, but do it with and with out the rear most toggle pin in place. (This may require your third hand to hold the rear toggle link down.) Ideally, there should be no difference in the two measurements. The quick test for this is to assemble the cannon with the striker cocked, then remove and re-insert the rear toggle pin. When you take it out things should not shift far enough to prevent putting it back in. (You may have to move the rear of the rear toggle link up or down a tad.)

From the measurements you've already taken it sounds like something doesn't fit quite right. How serious it is would depend on just what doesn't fit what. Are there any signs of abuse?

Stu · 10-14-2002, 09:11 AM

Thanks for the suggestion. I tried the rear pin sequence and the measurements are much the same. You can visibly detect that 95% + of the play is in the center toggle axis pin area.

The pin itself moves slightly relative to the rear toggle but the greatest slop is between the pin and the front half of the toggle.

I suspect you're right and that the pistol's been abused. There are discernable marks on the frame 'ramps' where the toggle contacts to begin the opening sequence. I wonder if someone has used smg ammo or some other 'hot' round ?

I suspect my 'bargain' has just turned into a liability ! I'll ring aimco and see if they think it's worth repairing.

John Sabato · 10-14-2002, 03:44 PM

Stu, If you suspect that the gun has been abused, then contacting AIMCO is the way to go. Don't write it off just yet. All lugers tend to peen the ramps with use. It may just be that this Stainless Luger has seen a lot of use, not necessarily abuse... Please Let us know what AIMCO says...

Stu · 10-14-2002, 06:16 PM

Thanks for the words of encouragement John [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Taking the same measurement on my BYF 41 I get a gap of .027" with no play at all. This is near the middle of the range I get with the aimco. As the great majority of the play is in the center toggle pin I'm hoping it indicates a worn pin, (not the hole in the front toggle link I hope), that should be easy to correct if it's out of tolerance.

I've mailed aimco, so we'll see what they suggest, but I bet I end up sending the canon assembly to them. I just hope that's all as I'm broke at the moment. [img]frown.gif[/img]

Still, another reminder not to buy used guns when you're in a hurry and don't have time to look and think !

Stu · 11-06-2002, 08:26 AM

Just to complete this thread for the benefit of anyone searching in the future, Aimco kindly responded to my question about clearances as follows;

"Those are all reasonable tolerances in all of our early models.They functioned as expected and occured only on the first generation models."

So all seems ok. They also offerred an attractive package to inspect and overhaul it if requried.

policeluger · 11-06-2002, 12:10 PM

Could you take this to a gunsmith and just have it headspaced. A good shop should have go, no go gages. Because it is too expensive to ship a gun to a smith, if there is not one in your area with gages, ship me just the complete top end. I will gage it for you at just the cost of returm shipping. It is the bottom end, the reciever, that must be shipped overnight.

Stu · 11-06-2002, 05:25 PM

Hi there. Thanks for the offer and I hadn't even thought of that simple check ! I was more concerned about imminent failure due to the play in the assembly being indicative of abuse. I'll check the headspace before use, but I'm fairly confident it's ok.

Thanks, Stu

10-12-2002, 04:12 PM	#1
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Worn out toggle assembly ? Hi all. I wonder if I could get some advice about a Mitchell / AIMCO luger I just acquired. There seems to be more play in the toggle assembly than I'd expect, mainly casued by slop in the toggle axis pin. In an effort to quantify this I took some measurements from the back of the barrel to the front of the breechblock. This was done with feeler gauges from underneath. The results were as follows; Assembled toggle without firing pin. Pushed toggle assembly forward towards barrel. Measured gap between back of barrel and front of breechblock as .017 in / .423 mm Replaced firing pin to provide rearward pressure to toggle assembly. Measured gap, as before, at .033 in / .838 mm. This gives me a rough guide to the total play as .016 in, (1/62") or .415 mm. Is this a serious issue requiring rebuild by AIMCO or just reasonable play in the assembly ? Any comments and suggestions welcomed !

10-14-2002, 03:44 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Stu, If you suspect that the gun has been abused, then contacting AIMCO is the way to go. Don't write it off just yet. All lugers tend to peen the ramps with use. It may just be that this Stainless Luger has seen a lot of use, not necessarily abuse... Please Let us know what AIMCO says... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-13-2002, 07:43 PM	#2
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 19 Times in 11 Posts	You need another measurment. Take the measurement you just did with the striker (firing pin) in place and cocked, but do it with and with out the rear most toggle pin in place. (This may require your third hand to hold the rear toggle link down.) Ideally, there should be no difference in the two measurements. The quick test for this is to assemble the cannon with the striker cocked, then remove and re-insert the rear toggle pin. When you take it out things should not shift far enough to prevent putting it back in. (You may have to move the rear of the rear toggle link up or down a tad.) From the measurements you've already taken it sounds like something doesn't fit quite right. How serious it is would depend on just what doesn't fit what. Are there any signs of abuse?

10-14-2002, 09:11 AM	#3
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Thanks for the suggestion. I tried the rear pin sequence and the measurements are much the same. You can visibly detect that 95% + of the play is in the center toggle axis pin area. The pin itself moves slightly relative to the rear toggle but the greatest slop is between the pin and the front half of the toggle. I suspect you're right and that the pistol's been abused. There are discernable marks on the frame 'ramps' where the toggle contacts to begin the opening sequence. I wonder if someone has used smg ammo or some other 'hot' round ? I suspect my 'bargain' has just turned into a liability ! I'll ring aimco and see if they think it's worth repairing.

10-14-2002, 06:16 PM	#5
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Thanks for the words of encouragement John [img]biggrin.gif[/img] Taking the same measurement on my BYF 41 I get a gap of .027" with no play at all. This is near the middle of the range I get with the aimco. As the great majority of the play is in the center toggle pin I'm hoping it indicates a worn pin, (not the hole in the front toggle link I hope), that should be easy to correct if it's out of tolerance. I've mailed aimco, so we'll see what they suggest, but I bet I end up sending the canon assembly to them. I just hope that's all as I'm broke at the moment. [img]frown.gif[/img] Still, another reminder not to buy used guns when you're in a hurry and don't have time to look and think !

11-06-2002, 08:26 AM	#6
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Just to complete this thread for the benefit of anyone searching in the future, Aimco kindly responded to my question about clearances as follows; "Those are all reasonable tolerances in all of our early models.They functioned as expected and occured only on the first generation models." So all seems ok. They also offerred an attractive package to inspect and overhaul it if requried.

11-06-2002, 12:10 PM	#7
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Could you take this to a gunsmith and just have it headspaced. A good shop should have go, no go gages. Because it is too expensive to ship a gun to a smith, if there is not one in your area with gages, ship me just the complete top end. I will gage it for you at just the cost of returm shipping. It is the bottom end, the reciever, that must be shipped overnight.

11-06-2002, 05:25 PM	#8
Stu User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 452 Thanks: 4 Thanked 25 Times in 16 Posts	Hi there. Thanks for the offer and I hadn't even thought of that simple check ! I was more concerned about imminent failure due to the play in the assembly being indicative of abuse. I'll check the headspace before use, but I'm fairly confident it's ok. Thanks, Stu