Luger identication help

[Norme]

Originally Posted by tomaustin

operating under other names......same level of arrogance...tom

Hi Tom, Albert is not the serial spammer who was just shown the door. He is a long time member of both forums and is very knowledgeable about early Lugers. He is just having an off day. Regards, Norm

[Ron Wood]

Albert is not a jughead. He is smart and has a great deal of experience. However, he does tend to shoot from the hip and has a great deal of difficulty in admitting that he has made an error. Arrogant is a harsh term but he tiptoes around its edges (as probably do I now and then).

Albert,
I should just let it go, but as usual you get personal so it makes it difficult to do so. I didn’t rush into anything; my comments were made on the basis of careful analysis of the photos presented (as obviously yours were not).

1. The toggle lock has been restrawed also and at too high of a temperature.
2. I agree
3. I agree
4. Baloney, the whole thing has been refinished and the “restorer” didn’t pay attention to detail or was ignorant of the details.

This pistol is a total “fake” in that it is an obvious attempt to present it as a very scarce 1900 Portuguese test piece, i.e. to enhance its rarity. The bogus “20” on the side of the receiver and the incorrect additon of later parts is evidence of this. I don’t know where you came up with “When the pistol was registered in Portugal, it was stamped with a 'police department' number on the left side of the frame in front of the sideplate”. I suspect it was from someplace in the vicinity of your hip pocket, but if you have references to the contrary I am not reluctant to admit I am wrong and will apologize. I don’t have any problem with “eating crow” when I am totally wrong.

[nukem556]

Pepe : don't know about Luger values where you live, but if it were offered here to me for $1000, buy it in a second! I think 1900s are the most beautiful of pistols, and although its not an orginal collectable, its still nice.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by nukem556

Pepe : don't know about Luger values where you live, but if it were offered here to me for $1000, buy it in a second! I think 1900s are the most beautiful of pistols, and although its not an orginal collectable, its still nice.

I think I asked once before, but were the 4 3/4" [120mm] 7.65mm barreled, scallop-toggle knobbed, flat breechblock Lugers made with stock lugs??? (Aside from 'Swiss carbines')...

[Ron Wood]

No, the qualifier here being a 4 3/4" barrel. Some rare examples with longer barrels did exist.

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by tomaustin

operating under other names......same level of arrogance...tom

Oh no, Albert is very polite and sane compared to this L. Argo guy; that guy has written me numerous times via the admin email (Jan Stills forum) on what a jerk I am on the luger forum (this one).

Alberto is just rude and believe's that other folks are not very smart, however, I must point out to all you who claim to be ignorant and stupid, that only two people had written before Alberto made his normal remarks. Me and poor David.

And Albert, I do look and consider before I write, this was an obvious restore, the color was totally wrong, the grips wrong, just the feel of it. And remember that I many times say, that to be careful; that judging from a few pictures does not always tell the truth.
Well, to my eye, it was wrong instantly, and unsure why you took a contrary position of immediately saying it was a most likely a 99-100% gun. That is a leap of faith that astounded me.


Ed

[DavidJayUden]

The longer this thread goes the more vindicated that I feel. Nice to have such learned persons on board!
Gracias!
dju

[Imperial Arms]

Ed,

I suppose that when a M1906 Portugese Royal Navy Luger in this mint condition comes out of Portugal (which is in my collection) - most people would either say it is suspicious or fake? Do you think that the straw is a bit on the strong side? If you have any doubt, you can ask Ron for his expert opinion who has examined this Luger in his hands.

In my opinion, when a couple of collectors on this forum rushed to judgement regarding the M1900 Commercial that Pepe located in Portugal based on average quality images, I felt that it was a wrong move until he provided better images. The flaw on the (left) grip was probably the first indication that there was tampering, however, it always better to ask for quality images until giving an opinion. Images can often be misleading or inaccurate, so learn to be careful.

Eventhough my opinion may not be complete, I prefer to give a final opinion when there is an opportunity to examine the item inhand.

In regards to my 'rudness' or arrogance, at times I have a reason to be because some people 'just don't get it' (i.e. M1906 Russian Contract and pre-production Lugers). Some people do not have any idea how commercial and army contract business operated in the early 1900's in regards to German firearms. For example, the Russian Army ordering pistols with Bulgarian markings and an emblem that makes no connection to the Russian empire - explain that one to me. All I hope is that some people will start to use their brain and common sense by learning to understand the heritage, standards and rules of other nations.

Albert

[Edward Tinker]

Albert, I think this is the first time you have ever shown a piece of your personal collection in a public forum?

I truly believe that a gun can not really be evaluated on its merits unless it is seen in person; pictures lie many times.

My issue is that you can be rude and mean in your attacking people if they disagree with you. And I am not intimidated by your tactics or disagreeable manner.

Is there any reason, any reason at all, that you could not intelligently say, hey guys, you might be jumping to conclusions? Instead you almost invariably will make an insulting comment. It is not appreciated.

I do not mind admitting that I am wrong, and I am careful when I state categorically that a luger appears wrong, as this one did. You instead called me names.

Quit doing so.

As I have said before, you are welcome to express your opinions, but remember, they are Your opinions, and every member here can have opinions. And yes, it is helpful if they are informed, intelligent opinions.


I would prefer if you would not attack any members with insults.

[A.Mifsin]

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

No.

Am I mistaken if I say Albert's Luger Sideplate is also round ? When, if I understood correctly Ron said " No". to a question by Jerry. Just asking.
Alf.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Instead you almost invariably will make an insulting comment. It is not appreciated.

One positive aspect to people like Albert and Lou is that they give us the extreme end of the bell curve in terms of human behavior. Without them, we would have no one to compare to.

[DavidJayUden]

I do like that 1906, Albert. The color is right, the grips fit it like a glove, and it shows just enough use to say that it has been around for a hundred years or so. Yes, the straw is exceptional.
So at the risk of jumping to conclusions, nice gun!
dju

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

Albert, I think this is the first time you have ever shown a piece of your personal collection in a public forum?

I truly believe that a gun can not really be evaluated on its merits unless it is seen in person; pictures lie many times.

My issue is that you can be rude and mean in your attacking people if they disagree with you. And I am not intimidated by your tactics or disagreeable manner.

Is there any reason, any reason at all, that you could not intelligently say, hey guys, you might be jumping to conclusions? Instead you almost invariably will make an insulting comment. It is not appreciated.

I do not mind admitting that I am wrong, and I am careful when I state categorically that a luger appears wrong, as this one did. You instead called me names.

Quit doing so.

As I have said before, you are welcome to express your opinions, but remember, they are Your opinions, and every member here can have opinions. And yes, it is helpful if they are informed, intelligent opinions.


I would prefer if you would not attack any members with insults.

Ed,

No, this is not the first time that I show images of various items in my collection on a forum. Furthermore, I used to have a web site (Imperial Arms) for a number of years that showed about 90% of my collection.

You say "pictures lie many times", however, it seems that you made a rather quick judgement about the M1900 Commercial Luger in Portugal based on average quality images. You must be feeling very confident with all your opinions - that's a great way to go! In a court of law, a person is innocent until proven guilty, however, in the forum, it seems that all guns are wrong until they are judged by the selective forum experts. Please ask my friend Ron Wood if my M1906 Portugese Royal Navy Luger is right or wrong - he knows.

I have no quarrel with someone who has a different opinion or a disagreement with me. I like constructive debates but not stories that hold no water. When face-to-face or voice communition is not available on the forums, it is very easy for a person to remain with the same position or mode of thinking in order to continue believing wrong information from the past. Many collectors like to contine seeing the small picture and not the big picture which often has certain rules and procedures taking place in the business and country. Quite often when debating a German firearm or accessory, some of the readers tend to ignore or overlook sound and logical information and instead continue to lean on fiction because they do not want to see the decline or demise of a certain item. You tell me of one other CONTRACT Luger made by DWM or Mauser that has a safety marking in a different language other than the county that purchased the pistols? For example, with regards to the M1900/03 and M1906/08 Bulgarian Lugers, in what language is the safety lever (and extractor) marking? Why not simply German?

When it comes to your role as a forum moderator, you (and Vlim) tend to use the word 'insult' in a rather liberal way. I do not remember in this topic insulting you, unless you feel that my use of two words 'ignorant and close-minded' in my general comment was interpreted as a direct insult to you. For your information, the word ignorant is not meant to be insulting - it means a lack of knowledge which happens to apply to everyone, including myself, since I am ignorant in other areas - I am continously learning just like you, so you can call me ignorant anytime about another subject and I shall not take it as an insult. In this topic, one member decided to twist what I wrote and switched the word to 'stupid' which I did not use. I guess that this sometimes shows a lack of comprehension of the English language.

Lastly, what is the point of trying to make a sensible case at times when other readers prefer to listen to stupidity or to only believe one or two similar sources of information in order to receive blessings on certain items in their collection? To my surprise, my presentation of certain strong information and opinions sometimes goes in one ear and out the other. I am glad to have the support of my Maltese friends who appreciate the knowledge that I share with them. By the way, I do not need to be rude to them. Of course, I can be wrong at times to a small degree, but it makes me wonder why some readers can still wish to believe in 'baloney' even though they wish to learn something from other collectors. On the other hand, do some readers simply want to entertain themselves by wasting time on the forums?

Albert

[Norme]

Originally Posted by A.Mifsin

Am I mistaken if I say Albert's Luger Sideplate is also round ? When, if I understood correctly Ron said " No". to a question by Jerry. Just asking.
Alf.

Hi Alf, Albert's gun is a 1906 Portuguese, Pepe's is a 1900. Regards, Norm

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

I do like that 1906, Albert. The color is right, the grips fit it like a glove, and it shows just enough use to say that it has been around for a hundred years or so. Yes, the straw is exceptional.
So at the risk of jumping to conclusions, nice gun!
dju

Thank you for the kind compliment, David. This Luger rig has incredible provenance and it is a stunner. It is the most historical piece in my collection, but not the rarest. I am thrilled to be the current caretaker of this exceptional item.

Cheers,
Albert

[Imperial Arms]

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Alf, Albert's gun is a 1906 Portuguese, Pepe's is a 1900. Regards, Norm

Correction: my pistol is a M1906 Portugese Royal Navy Contract Luger (crown anchor on the chamber) and Pepe's pistol is a M1900 Commercial Luger.

Albert

[Norme]

Originally Posted by Imperial Arms

Correction: my pistol is a M1906 Portugese Royal Navy Contract Luger (crown anchor on the chamber) and Pepe's pistol is a M1900 Commercial Luger.

Albert

Excusez moi.

[Ron Wood]

Albert's 1906 Portuguese Royal Navy is a world class 100% correct piece and I believe it to be the finest surviving example.

With regard to the comprehension of the use of the word "ignorant", in its vernacular use it, rightly or wrongly, carries the connotation of stupid. I would suggest that "uninformed" might be a better and more polite expression. "Close-minded" is just a personal opinion and reflects a unwarranted bias...in my opinion

I disagree that there was a rush to judgement on the 1900 Commercial. Careful analysis of the first photos presented indicated that it is incorrect and has elements of an attempt to forge a more rare and valuable piece.

[Norme]

Poor Pepe's head must be spinning!
Dear Albert, Please try to be more tactful, I know it's hard for you as you care so passionately about Imperial firearms. I very much enjoy debating you and would hate to see you benched. As Sir Walter Scott put it:
"The stern joy which warriors feel,
In foemen worthy of their steel"
Your friend, Norm

[Edward Tinker]

but Norme, I decided not to send you that PM....


I wonder if poor ignorant Albert realizes how much restraint this causes me?

Or if he would say things like that if we were in the same room?

I don't get told things like that too often in real life, only from the forum, and it makes it unpleasant staying on a forum where members openingly mock the moderators.