My 1900 American Eagle Test

[cirelaw]

NO PROBLEM, We are al in luck, Debbie bought me a 10x Kodak camera, known for closeups, I still have problems, uploading, so send me an email or message so i can send tou any particlar, be right back

[erndog105]

Thanks Pete. I assume you are talking about the area immediately below the lock. Specifically, are you refering to the blued frame part or the straw part, or both.

[Dwight Gruber]

EW,

Lets be clear about the "not all correct" aspect of this gun

This is a model 1900 U.S. Teat Eagle, found in the Bannerman auction range. As long as the numbers are all matching (and perhaps even if they weren't) it is "correct". The reblue simply makes it a reblue.

As a Test Eagle it is worth a not-inconsiderable amount, even reblued. I strongly recommend that you do not take this gun out and shoot it. The chance of breaking a numbered part is not one to be taken lightly; the flat recoil spring is known to be delicate after 107 years, and it is nearly impossible to find a replacement if broken. Such a circumstance will reduce its value considerably.

--Dwight

[cirelaw]

Great Advice, also wipe it down with a cotton cloth or white cotton sock You may have some acidic residue, that with time, will bear its ugly thumbprint, You owe to history, it made it this far, in its beautiful condition, but one drop of inattendness, cant be forgotten.

[Pete Ebbink]

EW,

It is the faint "white lines" around how the toggle lock indent piece is machined and pressed into and then soldered into the right frame rail.

It is silver-soldered in place and on most (BUT not all...) M1900's, the area of the solder lines does not take bluing well.

If I do not see the faint white lines, I do not immediately conclude the gun is refinished...just that one area may not be right and other "tell" areas would need a closer look as well.

BTW...I like the "age spots" showing on the strawed parts of the Simpson LTD photo I posted up...

[Pete Ebbink]

Grabbed more M1900 photos off the Simpsons LTD web site to look at the right side toggle locks :

[cirelaw]

Good Work, Thats exactly what I was trying ti show on mine thse two little parallelllel lines that are also evedent on my test luger.

[Lugerdoc]

Pete, One correction. The frame part of the toggle lock is NOT sodered in place, it fits into a tight dove tail. I have installed several of these (have this part available new @$40) and have even had a dove tail cut into the frame of a M1906, for a customer's sprecial project. TH

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Tom,

Are your sure ? If just pressed into place, why would the bluing not take across all the metal ?

Also, here is a posting Ron Wood did back on 9/11/2006 over on Jan's Gunboards which lead me to believe the part was soldered in place, after being pressed in place.

Here is a link to that discussion :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp...ilver+soldered

" Pete,

I may be missing something, but I do not see the difference. The toggle lock in the toggle knob is strawed in both examples. The toggle lock detent on the frame is silver soldered into the "T" slot in the frame, and the outline of the inset is clearly visible in both photos. The fit of the detent into the frame is very precise, so the outline of the silver solder is not always obvious or clearly defined. That doesn't mean that the H-H carbine hasn't been refinised (it almost certainly has because the Stoeger markings appear pantographed) but the toggle lock isn't a dead giveaway. Your efforts to obtain additional photos are appreciated, even if H-H doesn't think so! BTW, if you wouldn't mind, I would like to take you up on your offer of a high resolution photo of the Stoeger markings. Thanks
Ron

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it is made after 1918...it is a reproduction. "

[Pete Ebbink]

Eric's photos from a previous posting :

[Dwight Gruber]

Here is a scan of the part in question.



It may be a bit difficult to make out, but this is not the usual angled dovetail. The cuts are straight, almost making a tab-in-slot sort of insertion.

I have to wonder if the part is not an extreme press-fit, and the effect we see on the guns is simply the same kind of compression effect as halo from stamping? If it was silver solder I wouldn't expect to see any evidence beyond the actual part juncture.

Maybe Lugerdoc can answer this, when the toggle lock is removed, does it simply press out, or does it require heat to melt silver solder?

--Dwight

[Pete Ebbink]

Eric,

Here is a photo of the similar area on a Borchardt pistol that was refinished and I think the "lines" re-created in a nefarious attempt to make it look more original...

The Borchardt was from a recent RIA auction house on-line catalong posting.

So...A lesson here might be : Such lines being present on a gun may not confirm a gun's factory-original finish.

[erndog105]

This is the replacement Mag that was exchanged for the 1920 mag that came with the AE Test. Any opinions as to its validity for 1900?

[erndog105]

Pete, this is the toggle lock of my AE Test. Not sure what I am learning from this as it pertains to a re-blue gun. \
Thanks

[Pete Ebbink]

Vern,

From the variety of photos I 'borrowed' off the Simpsons LTD site, I was trying to show the variation in the extent of the "lines" one can see on factory original rust-blued Lugers.

In some extreme cases, both "lines" are very fuzzy and wide in parts. In others the shape of the "lines" become very narrow and sharp.

Ron Wood has even mentioned in a past posting seeing almost no "lines" on guns in his collection that are factory-finish as well.

I would still support the "hunch" that some silver soldering occurs to hold that piece in place on the frame rail and that a varying-degree of sanding occurred at DWM before the bluing treatment.

As some of the more high end, commercial guns such as carbines and presentation pieces may have gotten more time in the pre-blue prep. stages of getting a gun ready for bluing, those "lines" are less pronounced.

I think the degree of width and fuzziness one sees from gun-to-gun at these "lines" makes sense if a varying degree of residual silver solder along the brazed joints was left during sanding/polishing prep. and that the silver solder left did not take the blueing process as the surrounding areas of metal.

On refinished pieces, I see one or both "lines" totally sanded away to the point where no silver solder remains and the more modern-day re-blue covers it more completely.

The "refinished" Borchardt in the photo I posted above is a pretty obvious attempt by someone to "add back" the lines...probably with a few strokes of a very narrow and fine jeweler's metal file.

If one follows the idea that this part is only pressed into place on the frame rail (i.e. not soldered into place...), how would one explain the wide variation in shape, width, and fuzziness one sees on these two "lines" from gun to gun with factory original finishes ?

[erndog105]

Pete, thanks for the follow-up. Did you have a chance to look at the mag pictures posted just above the toggle lock pictures?

[Pete Ebbink]

Hi Vern,

I liked the new magazine...easily one worth $ 250 or more.

Hard to tell if for a M1900 commercial or a M1906 commercial...I do not think it matters.

I have one just like it...figured one day I might add a Swiss BUG-proofed commercial Luger...

[erndog105]

Thanks Pete for the response. Now what I am looking for is a nice 1902. But they do not come cheap.

[cirelaw]

iNSTEAD of guessing, can someone succintly, and consisly, point at what exactle the feel is wrong, Im sure most of you have never held in there hand a test luger, that was used as salesman samples,Theres no doubt that the luger, i purchased from Ralph is one of those pieces, Yes, there is some wear in parts involving the toggle, I cant see how one can judge a luger he never held. What worse by far is the unproffessional treatment, a FEW of YOU, have acted, The same people who swore my aberchrombie and fincl leather case was a repo, even after I sent it to a noted leather repair house, that does all the southerbies, I have a receipt, in which nowherre is mention mine is a repo, and after our own expert determined my US test holster legit along with my test luger, my dear critic, south of the borders continue on belittle anything he doest own My hats off to those upon whose opinion, one can rely, Ed, Ron, Dwight, etc, You are the true historians

[cirelaw]

DONT FIRE SUCH A BEAUTIFUL PIECE OF AMERICAN HISTORY, please