My 'New' 1902 Fat Barrel AE

[Ponyman]

Might those of us not privileged to attend be allowed
"to know the supplier of this piece"?

[drbuster]

If this Fat Barrel was initially sold as original in all respects and the conclusion by those who saw it at the SOS show was that it was refinished, then the original representation should be considered as misleading and incorrect. If this "misrepresentation" was effected with full knowledge beforehand, then its sale could be considered as fraudulent. Of course, how does one PROVE that the seller knew it was refinished and misrepresented it as original? It is my feeling that the buyer should, if he is dis-satisfied with the piece, request (or demand) a full refund even way after the three day inspection period or threaten to post the seller's name on this and the other Forum.

[Big Norm]

Gentlemen,
I showed my 'prizes' to a large group of people after they had drank a ton of excellent imported wine that clearly distorted their greatly aging eyes and I took their criticizms like a real man should. I forgot to load my camera with film before leaving for Kentucky so I can not show an personally altered photo of Petey, old buddy pal, and TomA. But, as the above mentioned real man that I am, I am working my Adobe PhotoShop software now to come up with apropriate pictures of these gentlemen. Now where is that picture of 'King Kong' knocking a huge dinosaur-like bat out of the air in a fight over one of my Lugers?

Ron Wood,
sorry that I didn't really get a chance to meet you personally at the party. When I opened my case of HIGHLY PRIZED HK's and my 1902AE FB, I got sorta knocked around by everybody and lost conciousness for a short while. After reading so much that you have written on the forum, I was really looking forward to meeting you. I left a message at your hotel in hopes of amending that but you had apparently already quickly left town. Don't worry, I paid your bill when the woman at the desk questioned me as to if I really knew you. . Gosh! You Texas guys are really slick. But Yankees are slick too. I paid the bill with my 'other' credit card that I got in Detroit just before I left for Kentucky.
Big Norm

[Pete Ebbink]

Norm,

This is the shape and slight "cut" I was mentioning...

[Big Norm]

Pete,
I remembering you graciously pointing out something about a cut at our meeting at the show, But I was still whipped from the long drive to Louisville and was trying to get an idea of the flow and feeling of my first time visit at this show, and I didn't quite get what you were talking about. I reviewed your excellent picture above as well as the picture in Stills book and I don't see a difference in them and my gun. What am I missing?

The bluing on my 1902 gun is not new. There is normal wear in the expected spots. I also showed this gun to Doug Smith and he felt that the gun was authentic except for the grips, which I knew. The attention at Dougs table quickly turned to my HK 'P' code and that gun became the focus of attention there. After reviewing Dougs fine assortment of HK's, I have to agree with his opinion on THAT gun. So I still I still might have been upset because of that to be truely listening to your later opinion.

At the party, later, I did not hear much of the comments about my other HK's because everyone crowded around my display. I only heard a comment by Tom about the side inscription on a different 'P' code HK, which I take some umberage at. But I am stalling on that topic until I purchase a digital camera, which won't happen until after I finish some personal business, including my income tax. Our friends in the government business get mad when they don't get a share of my profits. I don't want a bunch of black helecopters flying over my subdivision, my dog shot and my house burnt down. Those people have a history of that sort of thing.

Anyway, I will comment on the 'side inscripted' HK at a later date when I get that camera and I will post pictures as well as a retort under the HK thread. In the mean time, do not fret. I could not find that picture of 'King Cong' swatting at a huge, dinosaur-like bat over my Lugers. (Hee! Hee!). I won't be altering you avatar - just yet.
Still your buddy, Big Norm

[Big Norm]

Ponyman,
you missed a good party at the SOS show. Good food, good wine and good people. You even missed a good change to see me faint. I don't believe that the name of the seller came up, but I could be wrong. At this moment in time, I don't know if it would be right to advertise his name. WHILE NOT INTENDING TO BELITTLE ANYONE ON THIS POST, there is only the great Ron Wood, who is on this forum and who I think highly enough of to make me drop dead believe that this gun is a fake (if that is what Pete is alluding to). Ron was at the party but he may have left early. Also, a lot of people crowded around the display and he may not have been able to actually see the gun. What I want to do is get a digital picture of this gun and compare it side by side with Pete's picture. I can do it because I have the gun in my sweaty palms. But that doesn't help others on this forum. If the IRS doesn't throw me in jail, I'll be back. Thrust me.
Big Norm

[Pete Ebbink]

Norm,

Post a photo of your AE FB polished safety area and the strawed parts when you are able...entire gun photos would be nice as well.

I did not think your FB was a "fake"...just a refinished piece probably done 10-12 years ago...

You asked and I gave you my opinion...

You told me who the seller was before your money was sent and I shared my concerns about that source. This was 1-2 months ago, if I recall.

I think you got opinions from Doug Smith and possibly Don Rousseau as well on the floor of the show and those were not clouded by the dinner party's wines...

[Navy]

Norm,

The main problem with the P-Code is that the side frame markings are clearly engraved; the striations caused by the engraver's chisel are apparent to the naked eye.

Tom A.

[Big Norm]

Pete,
Doug Smith and Don Rousseau in addition to a few others, were indeed there. But, to my knowledge, they were more interested in examining a HK of mine rather than the 1902. I also thank you for your opinion. I am fearful that my post here might has been taken as much more hostile than I intended. I tried to add smilely faces but I guess that those faces didn't do the intended job. I really did enjoy meeting you for the first time. Your comments at the show may have surprised me but they did not make me mad at you.

Doug Smith hammered me on an HK that I had recently purchased from Jerry Peters here in Michigan. But in doing so, Doug did indeed increase my knowledge. He and I had a very good and long discussion on HK's in general. Jerry guaranteed that the gun was a mint HK and said that if I found out that it wasn't, he would take it back. We discussed the fact that I am leery of ANY minty Luger. I took the que from another poster on this thread and called Jerry and asked him to take it back and to refund my money. He refused to refund the $6500 that I paid, but he did offer to buy it back for $1000. Big of him. But this event may have influenced the tone of my post here and made me sound harsher on this thread than I intended. I apologize for that.

When I get my camera, I will post pictures of both the 1902 AE FB and the HK that I bought off off Jerry Peters. I might be a bit slow because I am still learning all the bells and whistles on my new computer and printer. I am sure that my new camera will also challenge my talents. Just bare with me and I will come through.
Big Norm

[Big Norm]

TomA,
I think that we should cover this at a later time on a HK thread. I need to get a good digital camera and to take some good pictures. At the show, I was standing behind some people and couldn't really hear a lot of what you were saying. You were examining the inscriptions on that 'P' code with a small, but bright light. I remember someone asking you how you could tell. I could not hear your response. It might have something to do with your bright light. But I am just guessing. A later post in the HK section by me with some pictures will open up the discussion to me and everyone else on this forum. It could be a good learning experience.
Big Norm

[Edward Tinker]

wish I could have been there!


BTW, if folks put a friggin smiley face, it usually means they are friggin kidding

[Pete Ebbink]

Norm,

I re-sent an email from you a few months back. From re-reading that email, it appears the FB was not from Jerry Peters but out of MN as I posted earlier.

Look forward to your posting of your FB photos...I never mind if I am proven wrong about my opinions... For your sake, I hope I am proven wrong with my opinion your FB is a nicely done (but not 100% correctly done) rework...

That is really crappy news about J. Peters and the HK affair...if fellow collectors do not stand by their WORD, what the heck is wrong with our "hobby"...

Suspect you got stuck with a questionable gun...maybe like he did...

I hear all the time from others in collecting that one "little secret" no one wants to talk about and certainly not ADMIT TO is that they do pass one bad gun onto the next less-unfortunate fellow that might not know all he should...

Rather than taking the loss and selling the picece as it is, they want to recoupe their monies and even make a BIG profit...as a guy recently confided to me he is doing...

IMHO...this is as bad as the boosters and spurious dealers out there...

[Big Norm]

Pete,
the FB was out of MN. I took an HK that I bought from Jerry Peters with me around the SOS show floor to show to Doug Smith. I told Jerry that I was leery of mint Lugers and that the deal was not final until I had Doug look at it. Unfortunately, because of Dougs bad health, he was not at the next OGCA meeting. The SOS show was my first opportunity to show it to Doug. I also showed Doug the FB while I was at it. So I carried two guns with me around the floor of the SOS show. Thats another reason that I was pretty tired and sore shouldered at the show. Those guns got pretty heavy after a while at that large SOS show.

Doug had a large number of HK's from his own collection for sale at his table and they attracted a lot of HK guys. That, I assume, is why Doug spent more time on my HK and why so many other people saw it.
Big Norm

[Big Norm]

Ed,
you should have been there. I came close to needing you for protection from Derek Seltzer. He was alway standing near a table that had a 1908 navy that I was interested in. I kept going back to it and losing my place in the show. But Derek was VERY interested in the cowboy hat that I was wearing. I didn't know if Derek was involved with the 1908 navy so I looked for him on the second day to see if we could work out something with the hat and that navy. But I couldn't find him again.

Dereks a good guy and we did some serious joking around. He really wanted my hat. The hat band too! We went into the lobby and tried to have our pictures taken together. We randomly grabbed some lady there and coerced her into taking our picture. She said; "Hey! Your cameras not working.". That is when I found out that I forgot to load it with film before leaving for Kentucky. All those pictures that I took at the forums party were taken with a dead camera. Derek couldn't stop laughing. The next time that I meet him I'll have to remember to keep one hand on my hat.
Big Norm

[Pete Ebbink]

Lost in this discussion which is bouncing between Norm's FB luger and a HK luger is the sad story that Norm could not rely on the WORD of a fellow collector and friend that sold Norm the HK.

A lesson is there for the rest of us : Even when buying from a trusted friend or fellow collector in person, get his/her "money back" guarantee in writing before monies exchange hands.

[pipeman45]

Growing up my Dad taught me that a man is only as good as his word. I've tried to live up to that all my life. It's cost me some money when I priced some things and later found out they were worth a whole lot more. It's a sad world we live in when this is no longer true.

[jamese]

I live up to the same Golden Rule Pipeman
I know of a few whos word is as good as gold,
Geo Anderson is one fellow collector who stands behind what he sells along with others that I have delt with on this board

Jim

[Big Norm]

So true everyone. I used to like to go to Jerry Peters house. Lotsa small, fresh vegetable stands out there and I would see deer running across the road to his place. I always love to watch them. I passed on Jerrys gun twice until he gave me his guarantee. My instincts told me that it was wrong. I liked Jerry. It was nice to go to someones place and just talk about Lugers. See his Lugers and show mine over a cup of coffee. But somewhere along the way, he became a dealer instead of a collector. Thats all gone now. Quick money wins out again. I am truely sad about that.
Big Norm

[Edward Tinker]

Norm, did you point blank ask for your money back from Jerry?

And if so, how long afterwards of getting the gun?

[Big Norm]

Eddy,
Yes. He said that would not give me my money back but if I wanted to sell it to him, he would give me $1,000 for the gun that I paid him $6500 for. A little insulting, hey?
Big Norm