1916 Dwm 7.65

[A.Mifsin]

Hi All, is it possible for a DWM 1916 to be in 7.65mm ? Can I change a 9mm Luger barrel with one of 7.65 and shoot it?
Alf

[Ron Wood]

A 7.65mm barrel on a 1916 is not original. You can replace the 7.65mm barrel with one in 9mm without any problem. You may have to replace the mainspring also if it was changed when the 7.65mm barrel was installed.

[A.Mifsin]

Originally posted by Ron Wood
A 7.65mm barrel on a 1916 is not original. You can replace the 7.65mm barrel with one in 9mm without any problem. You may have to replace the mainspring also if it was changed when the 7.65mm barrel was installed.

Thank You Ron, am understanding you correctly,you can change from 7.65 to 9 mm but you can't from 9 mm to 7.65mm. Is it because of the chamber, since the 7.65mm is a bottlneck round? Could it be that this gun was modified during the Weimar Era because of the Treaty of Versailes Pistol Restricions ?
Alf

[Ron Wood]

Alf,
You can put either caliber barrel on any Luger. There is no difference in the basic Luger or magazine for either caliber. It is possible that it was modified during the Weimar era, but unless it has property, acceptance or export stamps added, it is most likely a more modern replacement.

[A.Mifsin]

Thank You Ron. It is clear now.
Alf

[Vlim]

Hi Alf,

The development of the luger rounds was quite an interesting one and you can fill some books about it.

Here is the ultra-short version:
Hugo Borchardt developed the basic round for his C/93. 7,65 Borchard in diameter with an overall case length of .990" (25.15mm).

Mauser, Mannlicher and Tokarev 7,63 x 25 rounds are basically just rip-offs of the 7.65 Borchardt round. Dimensionally the same, but with a spiffier load.

Georg Luger made a tour along the European armies with the C/93 Borchard, demonstrating it with the aim of getting army contracts for it. The Swiss were interested, but suggested a number of changes were needed. Luger got to work and one of the things he did was to introduce the grip angle as we know it today. In order to create that grip angle and to reduce the bulkiness of the package, he shortened the 7,65 Borchardt to a case length of some 21.5 mm (.845-ish). The Swiss were quite happy with this round and Luger's pistol design and they introduced it to their army around 1900.

Luger continued to market and demonstrate his guns, but many army commissions had doubts about the stopping power of the small round. Luger thus redesigned the round, doing away with the necked design (originally conceived as an effective gas seal) and created the 9mm parabellum (or 9 millimeter luger) round. The slightly tapered case together with a machined step in the pistol's chamber created an equally effective gas seal.

Since the overall shape of the 7,65 para round's base and the length didn't change, the modifications done to the pistol were pretty much limited and consisted of a modified barrel/chamber and a retweaked main spring.

This is the reason why a 7,65 para / .30 luger version of the luger pistol does not differ much from the 9mm version.

The 9mm round as we know it, but with a flat head nose at first, was introduced around 1902.

[John Sabato]

Alf, barrel changing is also not a job for the faint at heart... it requires special tools and knowledge to keep the receiver and the barrels involved from being damaged... not a job for the average gunsmith... let alone an amateur... I don't know of anyone qualified to work on this in Malta? the closest would be in Germany (Herb Werle)...

[Vlim]

In certain European countries, the 9x19 Parabellum is viewed as a military cartridge and local gun laws forbid private persons from owning guns in military calibers (Belgium had a construction like that, and also Italy).

It's not uncommon to see rebarrel jobs near these countries. In Italy the conversion to 9x21 is popular, but also the 7,65 para.

[A.Mifsin]

Luger continued to market and demonstrate his guns, but many army commissions had doubts about the stopping power of the small round. Luger thus redesigned the round, doing away with the necked design (originally conceived as an effective gas seal) and created the 9mm parabellum (or 9 millimeter luger) round. The slightly tapered case together with a machined step in the pistol's chamber created an equally effective gas seal.
--------------------------

Thank you all you guys, you are very kind with your information, but as G.van Vlimmeren said as above it seems that it is not only a question of changing the barrel, since the chamber is different from a 9mm to 7.65mm.
So, one canâ??t simply change the barrel and as John said, it is an expert job (maybe some day someone will explain how it is done, sort of the tricks of the trade:-) sending a Luger out of my country and getting it back modified, is a nightmare) but you have to modify the chamber also. I am saying this because as far as I know the 9mm round rest on the edge of the front cartridge, and the 7.65mm rest on the neck of the cartridge in the chamber.
I canâ??t see why someone change a 9mm Luger barrel to 7.65mm if not as Vlimmeren said because of restriction in his country.
Thank you all for your help
Alf

[Tobruk42]

"sending a Luger out of my country and getting it back modified, is a nightmare) but you have to modify the chamber also. I am saying this because as far as I know the 9mm round rest on the edge of the front cartridge, and the 7.65mm rest on the neck of the cartridge in the chamber."

Since the chamber is an integral part of the barrel no further modification is necessary. In other words, each barrel is already chambered for the particular cartridge in question when it is manufactored. The receiver merely accepts the chambered barrel and at that point the conversion from one caliber to the other is complete. Then for correct function you move on to the matter of switching out the main spring and final tuning of the pistol if required.

[A.Mifsin]

Thank you Tobruk42, that is much more easy, now all I need is to know how to change the barrel
Alf.

[Tobruk42]

Are you prohibited from shipping just the disassembled receiver out of the country? Over here it would just be considered to be a gun part and not subject to any restrictions. How strict is Malta concerning shipping gun parts?

[John Sabato]

Alf, please see my post above... without the proper tools, trying to change the barrel would be disasterous to your Luger.

[Vlim]

Just want to add that both chambers are stepped in a luger, although the step in the 7,65 version is bigger, of course. The 9mm has a small step in the chamber that will provide excellent seating and a good gas seal (and a nice indentation around the cartridge's top edge).

The guys are right that the chamber and barrel are one package and that removing a barrel without proper tools will most likely ruin the barrel and the receiver.

[A.Mifsin]

Thank You guys for all your help.
To import any gun pre 1946 is no problem at all as long as you have a collectorâ??s licence, which I have. Lots of paper work is involved if you try to send a gun for repair and it will come back different from it was, for example change of caliber and any physical changing. It involves lots of paper work, inspection of the gun and an explanation why. It is time consuming and I try to avoid it when I can :-).
Tobruk42 your idea of sending only the receiver is a good idea and I will probe into it.
Any way this Luger is still on its way and I will decide when it will arrive. Until then, thank you all for your valued advice, which without it, I probably would have ruined this Luger.
Alf.