Luger identication help

[pepe]

I would like some help to identify this Luger

The serial number is 1584 and aldo is writen GERMANY

On the side the number 20 is stamped

I will post some photos next

thanks
pepe

[pepe]

Hello

I`m trying again to post some photos of this 1900 luguer

The gun is in excelent condition.As it is in Portugal i wonder if it could be a luger made for military test ?

Thank you for any advise
pepe

[alanint]

Hi Pepe,

I doubt a military test gun would be stamped "Germany", which is a stamp that was required by the US, (and perhaps other countreis) for import.
If that finish is truly original your gun is in outstanding shape, although absolutely NO wear on a front strap or backstrap is always a red flag for me.

[DavidJayUden]

Certainly looks like a re-finished 1900 commercial to me too. A nice gun. Is there bluing under the safety lever?
More photos please.
dju

[Edward Tinker]

I am sure it is refinshed, but it is a nice early commercial.


Ed

[pepe]

Thank you very much, I will post some more photos and more information later.
Can anyone explain me whats the meaning of the number 20 stamped on the left side over the trigger ?

Regards
Pepe

[Imperial Arms]

Hello Pepe,

If I had to make an opinion, the M1900 Commercial Luger that you show on this forum was probably a private purchase around 1904-06. When the pistol was registered in Portugal, it was stamped with a 'police department' number on the left side of the frame in front of the sideplate.

In my opinion, the pistol appears to be original and I doubt that such an outstanding restoration could be made in Portugal, unless the pistol was previously purchased and restored in another country. Sometimes you need to excuse the closed and ignorant opinions of some collectors on this forum who like to rush to conclusions about pistols appearing in near mint condition – they often say that "it can’t be true for a gun that old" without knowing much information as to what was found in other overseas countries. I personally know of about ten pre-1945 German pistols that I have been found in Portugal in similar condition including three mint M1934 Mauser Schnellfeuer pistols. Please e-mail me some close-up images of the front sight and the two sides of the pistol, preferably taken in the shade (natural light) on a colored background such as grey, yellow or light brown (such as a large piece of cardboard box). I shall send you my e-mail address separately.

For your information, I am aware of a few outstanding pistols that have come out of Portugal over the past many years. For example, in 2001, I acquired from the great grandson of Admiral Hypacio de Brion his near mint M1906 Portuguese Royal Navy Luger with all its accessories including the original manual from the Royal Navy Academy. Usually, these pistols are still 'hiding' in certain families.

It is a fact that Portuguese citizens did purchase Lugers before the Portuguese Navy received their various contract Lugers in 1908. Interestingly, I recently acquired from a Portuguese book dealer a first edition Albrecht Kind (AKAH) dealer catalog that was published in 1910 in the Spanish and English language. It lists the M1900 Luger as well as the M1902 Luger Carbine.

I am awaiting a reply from you.

Regards from Malta,
Albert Beliard

[DavidJayUden]

Well, if that isn't re-finished I will be eating crow, BUT given the blackness of the finish, no visible halos, minty grips and mag. bottom, and generally poor photos I stand by my "re-finished" verdict. Not to say that I could not be wrong.
Signed:
Closed and Ignorant in Omaha
dju

[Edward Tinker]

Albert, I could be wrong, and that is fine, but please have the pictures posted here and not to your email.

I would love to see how such a nice gun can exist after so many years.


I will refrain from taking offense to your baiting, since I know you have trouble with humor with the English language and can not always express yourself adequately.


Ed

[drbuster]

The grips don't look orginal to my eye, slightly ill fitting, the color too light to have over 100 years wear on them and just too pristine with respect to the diamonds.

[wlyon]

I am so closed and ignorant that I will refrain from making a comment. Sorry I am so stupid. Bill

[nukem556]

the frame serial # as 1584, very early for a 1900....isn't the safety a 3rd type, later one? Wide grip safety? No expert here, was there another serial # range for Portugese guns?

[pepe]

Hello, Thank you very much for all of the information . First of all i would like to say that im not an expert in lugers but it's a gun i like very. i have a portuguese army in very good conditions too, that you can see photos on the post luger without marks pepe 2006.

[DavidJayUden]

Pepe:
Good luck and it is truely a beautiful gun.
dju

[Ron Wood]

Pepe:

I am glad you have not yet purchased this Luger. As one of the “closed and ignorant” persons that Albert warned you about, I would like to make some comments about the gun.

It is a very early Model 1900 and should have a Type II thumb safety and a narrow grip safety (only slightly wider than ½ the width of the grip strap). The grips are reproduction. The checkering is not as fine as the original 1900 grips and you can clearly see at the top of the grip that it is not shaped correctly. It is difficult to tell from the photo but it appears that the front sight is blued and not a heat treated “fire blue” finish. Bluing is always difficult to evaluate from photo due to variances in type of lighting, background, etc., but the finish on this gun looks too dark and there are absolutely no flaws or wear anywhere on the gun. Although not impossible, while I have seen some really superior original Lugers as early as this one, I have never seen one this perfect.

There are Model 1900 Lugers that have been attributed to early Portuguese testing. There are no surviving archival records to verify this, but it is generally accepted. These guns bear a large two-digit number on the side of the receiver like the “20” on the example you are looking at, but they are of much later production in the 18XXX serial number range. This gun is much too early.

In my “ignorant” opinion, this is a refinished gun with replacement parts and an obvious forgery that is an attempt to replicate an early Portuguese test piece. I also find it amusing that an outstanding restoration could not be made in Portugal…there are “artisans” in every country!

Regards,
Ron

P.S. The "GERMANY" stamp is the final kiss of death!

[pepe]

Ron

Thanks for your opinion.I have some prety good photos that can help your analise but i`m being tryng to post them for 2 hours without sucess......

[nukem556]

So, Ron is a "type 3" safety the long checkered one? thats the one I thought this gun should have, but I thought that it would be called a Type 1....but hey, but I knew the grip safety was wrong :-)

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by pepe

Ron

Thanks for your opinion.I have some prety good photos that can help your analise but i`m being tryng to post them for 2 hours without sucess......

They just need to be made smaller, then they will post.

Crop, then make them smaller....


Ed

[wlyon]

Pepe ; In this luger collecting world we have many differing opinions. In this case if Ron Wood says it's a fake then stay away from it. Certain experts should be listened to, Ron is one of them. What ever you decide to do is up to you and you alone but you have been warned. Good luck. "Ignorant Bill"

[Ron Wood]

Originally Posted by nukem556

So, Ron is a "type 3" safety the long checkered one? thats the one I thought this gun should have, but I thought that it would be called a Type 1....but hey, but I knew the grip safety was wrong :-)

My apologies!!! I hit the "I" one too many times. A Type II is the short checkerd safety, the Type III is the short grooved safety. Thanks for pointing out my goof and you were right on with your original comments about the thumb and grip safetys.