1902 Carbine

[StarOfTheWest]

1902 Carbine, serial 50001.
7.65 caliber.
My family has owned this gun since 1969.
The receipt of purchase amount would make us all cry, even though it was a considerable sum back then.
It has been reblued at least 40 years back, if not longer.
All numbers on the gun match, but the stock may be from a 1920 Carbine, and has a different #, 5684c.
The zig zag checkering pattern, and placement of the sling loop looks different than the 1902 version.
Unmarked wood bottom magazine.
Barrel still in very good shape internally.
I would never consider this gun a "shooter", even though it has been reblued.
With all numbers matching on such a rare piece, I would still think it to have considerable collector value, just not as much as one in the original finish.

[cirelaw]

ERIC, I last year acquired abeautiful 1920, 9mm Luger Carbine. I took out my stock and compaired it by sight with yours.I have no doubt your stock taller in proportion than mine, no doubt, Ill ask Ed if he can post my stock, unfortunatly, I dont havea ruler.

[StarOfTheWest]

Thanks, Eric, proportions on pics may be off though, as I am not the best photographer.

Do the other details of your stock look the same?
Checkering, buttplate, iron, swivel?

And is your stock a matched one to your gun?

[cirelaw]

I cant beleive I dont have a ruler. Please e-me ill send your some beauties closeups anyone too! snookem13@aol.com'

Serial number is 3132t The stock end is stamped '32'

I bought mine from Ralph Shattuck, 3 years ago.

[Dwight Gruber]

Anna,

You continue to come up with the most interesting Lugers.

1902 Carbines are found in the serial ranges 21157-22000 and 23460-24872--approximately, and with other guns intermixed. Your carbine is from a very small run, less than 200 examples and perhaps no more than 100, found at the beginning of the 50000 serial range--yours may, in fact, be the first one in that series. This series was made in 1909.

Is this gun stamped GERMANY anywhere?

--Dwight

[cirelaw]

Dwight, nice research!

[StarOfTheWest]

No, Dwight, I haven't seen an export mark on it anywhere.
No "Germany" stamp.
1909, eh?
Fascinating, thank you for the info.
Wow, first of a series!
I had no idea, I didn't know about the serial range.
I only knew that this gun was correct in parts, even though reblued.

[Edward Tinker]

Anna, this is a beauty, very nice!

Ed

[StarOfTheWest]

Eric, does yours not have a lower swivel on the stock?
Or am I missing it in the dark pic?

Also, is there a very slight curve on the butt of your stock?
Or is the pic just making it look flat?

Do you have clear well lit close ups of the stock and iron, and from all directions?

Ed and Dwight, thanks, and thanks for looking.

[cirelaw]

I do have both original swivell connected to an original carbine sling i bought from Gerry Burney. I dont have them attached because of the wear it causes on the accompaning Aberchrombie & Finch leather carrier

[laoshi75]

Anna,

fantastic, once again...I am voiceless..
are there any LP08 (DWM 1914 ?) or Borchardt in your collection ? you might want to post photos...
thank you, and congratutations to you !

christian

[StarOfTheWest]

Thank you Christian.
You are very kind.
Yes, there is one Borchardt and 7 LP-08s in the collection.
I haven't gotten to those yet, but I will at some point, post those also.

Eric... I see.
Thank you.

[cirelaw]

Debbie bought me a beautiful 1913 Erfurt with matching erfurt stamp holster, My bithday lalls on the thirtheenth. Maybe Ed could publish some of those sent Ed earlier today them some, more appropiate. For Dwight, the serial number is #9502a

[laoshi75]

"Yes, there is one Borchardt and 7 LP-08s in the collection".

oups !...I am anxious to watch the photos..(don't forget the holsters please).
I suggest to change your pseudo into "StarOfTheForum" now !

one word: respect.

cv

[StarOfTheWest]

Christian, I have 2 huge boxes full of conventional holsters and LP rigs.
I put all the Lugers into safe storage fleecy bags when I gave them their initial look-see and oiling, and just stashed the holsters elsewhere.

I was hoping after I get through posting on the Lugers, to get some much needed info on all the leather by posting pics.

Seriously, I know *nothing* about the holsters.

I did spot a nice condition LP holster in the pile with Navy marks on it though.
Too bad I have only a 6" Navy or two, and not the long barreled one.

I will try to appropriately match up the LP rigs though.
As with the guns, some are nice, and some are old war dogs.
The bottom half of the collection becomes much more mundane.

We have time, and besides, if I post it all at once, you will get bored.
Gotta spread it out a little, n'est-ce pas?

Thanks for being so encouraging.

[laoshi75]

[Ron Wood]

Watch out for Christian...he's French you know !!! Not only does he know Lugers but he offers flowers to ladies! Please be assured that the rest of the forum is no less appreciative of the goodies that you post. Keep 'em coming!

P.S. Chances are pretty good that the original stock iron was discarded in the insanity that preceded BATF deciding that carbines were exempt, and it was subsequently replaced with an artillery iron. As Dwight has pointed out, you have again shown us a rare Luger example. Your family did very well in their collecting efforts.

[Imperial Arms]

One of my favorite Lugers is the M1902 Luger Carbine, and I enjoy very much doing the research on this type of Luger.

It is hard to believe that the Luger Carbine was a dismal product for DWM. It took DWM about 20+ years to sell their inventory of 2,500-3,000 carbines even with all the advertising which appears in various dealer catalogs. A possible reason for the lack of sales for the Luger Carbine probably came from the requirement of '+P' (DWM 471A) ammunition which was not widely available - even President Roosevelt had difficulty obtaining ammunition for his Luger carbine! The 471A cartridge had a flat projectary, but the size of the bullet had limited its use as a hunting carbine, and the largest animal that it could easily kill was a large ram or some 'pests' such as foxes. None of the information that I have read mentions that the carbine was suitable for deer hunting.

The earliest dealer catalogs listing the Luger Carbine are from 1906 and it continues to appear in some American dealer catalogs until 1929. If I had to make a WAG, I reckon that the first Luger carbines (with Tangent sights) were made in 1902 and the next model (which we name the M1902) was probably introduced in 1903. For example, a few of the presentation Luger carbines, such as the HCR carbine, is dated 1903. It is surprising that it took nearly three years for the standard M1902 carbine to be accepted by some retail stores such as A&F and SD&G.

It seems that the best sales period for the Luger Carbine was around 1910 and afterwards it started to rapidly decline. There was an attempt by DWM to reintroduce the carbine in 1920, but I guess that they just wanted to finish using their old inventory and using the new toggle.

Some collectors want to believe that a carbine was made in 9 mm Parabellum, however, it is my opinion that this was very unlikely. EVERY piece of European and American documention that I have on the Luger Carbine lists it being available ONLY in caliber 7,65 mm. The H. Tauscher catalogs also describe it as being available in one caliber. I would be very suspicious of any Luger Carbine in caliber 9 mm.

Albert

[Ron Wood]

Albert,
I appreciate your suspicions about a 9mm Carbine, but in 1968 I had the opportunity to buy just such a beast. It was in the little town of Alamogordo, New Mexico, and was part of a collection of 20+ Lugers that had just been obtained by a gun shop owner from a retiring Air Force noncom stationed at Holloman Air Force Base. It was almost mint with a matching stock. It was a Model 1902 and it was not a fake. The asking price was $1500. But as a then young Captain in the US Army with two toddler children whose first new car in 1962 cost $1350 that had to be paid off over 3 years, it might as well have been $1,500,000. Your documentation notwithstanding, I know that at least one 9mm Carbine does exist and I held it in my own two hands.

[MFC]

Ron,
I'm curious. At the time (1968), did you know the significance of a M1902 9mm carbine? You should have sold the newer car and bought a used Volkswagen so you could have made the deal. I'm sure your wife would have understood.
Mike C.