Any info appreciated !

NoLuck · 09-23-2009, 11:38 AM

I thought I'd post these pics in here and see what people know about this one. I know it's 1920 DWM and another member told me it was commercial.
Since I am now a pro at adding pics to my posts

here's a whole bunch !!

alanint · 09-23-2009, 12:09 PM

It is a commercial gun but with a military or police Unit marking. I am sure the experts will chime in with who this was issued to.

Edward Tinker · 09-23-2009, 02:41 PM

What I can see is that it is a commerical crown N and a police via the unit marking. Its an early police marking, I think I have a loading tool with those markings (one of the few I have seen marked with the unit marking).

Is it all matching?

No sear safety, not sure if unusual for this unit, Don would know.

Ed

NoLuck · 09-23-2009, 03:10 PM

Every number I can find on it is matching.

Ron Wood · 09-23-2009, 04:06 PM

Schutzpolizei Arnsberg, Second Hundertschaft (company), weapon #120

Don M · 09-23-2009, 09:09 PM

The suffix on the frame appears to be an incompletely struck "s." If so, it means it was manufactured in 1929 and is what is now called a "29 DWM." It has a small eagle and Gothic G stamped on the bottom of the replacement barrel. While not positively identified, this seems typical of the 9-mm barrels that were used in 1927-28 to convert .30-cal commercial Lugers into police Lugers. This gun is a bit later but probably still fits in that group.

Ron is correct that the marking S.Ar.II.120. is from the Schutzpolizei of the Arnsberg district; however, the II in this marking stands for the Schupo command at Bochum (HWIS, p. 117).

The marking is a Type 3 Prussian Schupo marking, meaning it was stamped in conformance with the 1932 Prussian marking order.

The Schupo command at Bochum had five barracked Bereitschaften (reserve police companies) in 1932 (HWIS Table D-1)which would have been redesignated as Landespolizei in 1933-34 and transferred to the military in 1935-36. The lack of a sear safety on this pistol, along with the 1937 military-style holster and military-proofed mags, strongly suggest that this gun was issued to the Bereitschaftspolizei and ended up in the military. Lugers of the Bereitschaftspolizei were exempted from the 1933 order to add sear and mag safeties to police Lugers (HWIS, Chapter 2).

Don M · 09-23-2009, 09:21 PM

I was just looking back at the photos. Is that a 1920 property stamp on the top of the receiver?

Edward Tinker · 09-23-2009, 11:15 PM

Don, I was wondering too, then realize he stated "a 1920 DWM".....

Here is my tool that I have;

NoLuck · 09-23-2009, 11:39 PM

Yes it is stamped 1920 . I have no idea if the holster came with it or was something that the gun was just put in. And the mags I also have no clue about. This was all my dads stuff.

NoLuck · 09-23-2009, 11:40 PM

NoLuck · 09-23-2009, 11:53 PM

Don M · 09-24-2009, 01:25 PM

After looking at the most recent photos, I now believe the suffix is an incompletely struck "o." This makes the pistol an Alphabet DWM, manufactured in the latter half of 1925 (Still, Weimar Lugers, p. 15). This is more consistent with the other evidence: the 1920 government property stamp on the receiver and the markings on the bottom of the barrel. While 1925 is late for the application of the 1920 property stamp, I have seen it on Lugers manufactured in 1924 and sold to the Landespolizei Thüringen and at least one mid-20s Prussian Schupo Luger. It is rare but apparently some police continued to use it as a property stamp long after the original intent of the stamp was moot.

The rest of my discussion above remains valid. While there is no way to prove that the holster and mags were captured with the gun, there is no evidence to the contrary. You have a Luger with a very rare police marking. While I have recorded Type 3 S.Ar.II markings on a holster and two bayonets, this is the only one I have seen on a Luger. Congratulations!

Ed, the marking on your tool is an earlier Type 1 marking probably from the Schupo command at Dortmund. It is listed in Table 7-10 of HWIS.

NoLuck · 09-24-2009, 04:24 PM

Wow that's a surprise !
I don't think he even knew what he had . It's too bad he isn't still alive , he would have loved all this info. I guess before the internet you'd have to read every book on the subject and talk to anyone in the area that had any knowledge,which I know he did often. Even then I guess it was more or less a crapshoot when you bought something.The evidence is right here !
Somewhere he's smiling about this I'll bet !!

Thanks very very much. You guys really have some big ol' brains. It amazes me that you can tell so much from a few stamps and a couple of dates !

So now here's the big question
What's it worth ?

Edward Tinker · 09-24-2009, 04:35 PM

Rare, doesn't always mean its valuable

... Especially police guns, they are still mostly unknown to most collectors.

The condition of the pistol is rougher than many collectors would want to spend large dollars on, even though its unusual, most folks would not know that.

So, let me say what I'd be asking sitting on my table...

Luger w/ 1 mag $800-$900

extra magazine is worth around $125-$150

Holster is a nice brown holster and as long as it has not been cut down on the inside; $225-$300

Is there a tool in the little pouch?

Ed

alanint · 09-24-2009, 04:39 PM

Just to add a small detail, one of the belt loop stitchings on the holster has been repaired, but looks restorable.

NoLuck · 09-24-2009, 05:49 PM

Yep tool in the pouch.

When I was looking at the stitches in the holster I noticed that the mark where the belt would rub has more to it than I thought.

I also have this mag that doesn't seem to (me) go with either of the guns.

Edward Tinker · 09-24-2009, 07:38 PM

tool is either an unmarked DWM or Mauser and worth around $45

The mag you have is called a "replacement" mag and highly sought after, I have sold them for around $200-$300 because they make a unmatched luger, technically matched (some folks I am sure "renumbered" them).

Ed

NoLuck · 09-27-2009, 04:10 AM

Thanks a lot for all your help.

Are there any other Canadian collectors on here ?
I trying to decide what to do with these and am wondering if it's even possible to sell to someone in the US if that's what I decide to do. I'll bet it a huge pain in the ass for both parties but I'd think it'd be much easier selling to another Canadian.

Ice · 09-27-2009, 04:44 AM

I have bought a few items from a Canadian collector - no firearms though. He always shipped through UPS and I received them without a problem.

Charlie

NoLuck · 09-27-2009, 11:26 AM

Yes I figure the accessories wouldn't be much of a problem, I'm really wondering about the firearms themselves.
Anybody done it ?

09-23-2009, 02:41 PM	#3
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	What I can see is that it is a commerical crown N and a police via the unit marking. Its an early police marking, I think I have a loading tool with those markings (one of the few I have seen marked with the unit marking). Is it all matching? No sear safety, not sure if unusual for this unit, Don would know. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-23-2009, 04:06 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Schutzpolizei Arnsberg, Second Hundertschaft (company), weapon #120 __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

09-23-2009, 09:09 PM	#6
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	The suffix on the frame appears to be an incompletely struck "s." If so, it means it was manufactured in 1929 and is what is now called a "29 DWM." It has a small eagle and Gothic G stamped on the bottom of the replacement barrel. While not positively identified, this seems typical of the 9-mm barrels that were used in 1927-28 to convert .30-cal commercial Lugers into police Lugers. This gun is a bit later but probably still fits in that group. Ron is correct that the marking S.Ar.II.120. is from the Schutzpolizei of the Arnsberg district; however, the II in this marking stands for the Schupo command at Bochum (HWIS, p. 117). The marking is a Type 3 Prussian Schupo marking, meaning it was stamped in conformance with the 1932 Prussian marking order. The Schupo command at Bochum had five barracked Bereitschaften (reserve police companies) in 1932 (HWIS Table D-1)which would have been redesignated as Landespolizei in 1933-34 and transferred to the military in 1935-36. The lack of a sear safety on this pistol, along with the 1937 military-style holster and military-proofed mags, strongly suggest that this gun was issued to the Bereitschaftspolizei and ended up in the military. Lugers of the Bereitschaftspolizei were exempted from the 1933 order to add sear and mag safeties to police Lugers (HWIS, Chapter 2). __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

09-23-2009, 09:21 PM	#7
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	I was just looking back at the photos. Is that a 1920 property stamp on the top of the receiver? __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

09-23-2009, 11:15 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Don, I was wondering too, then realize he stated "a 1920 DWM"..... Here is my tool that I have; Attached Thumbnails __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-23-2009, 11:38 AM	#1
NoLuck User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Ontario , Canada Posts: 65 Thanks: 8 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Any info appreciated ! I thought I'd post these pics in here and see what people know about this one. I know it's 1920 DWM and another member told me it was commercial. Since I am now a pro at adding pics to my posts here's a whole bunch !!

09-23-2009, 12:09 PM	#2
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	It is a commercial gun but with a military or police Unit marking. I am sure the experts will chime in with who this was issued to.

09-23-2009, 03:10 PM	#4
NoLuck User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Ontario , Canada Posts: 65 Thanks: 8 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Every number I can find on it is matching.

09-23-2009, 11:39 PM	#9
NoLuck User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Ontario , Canada Posts: 65 Thanks: 8 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Yes it is stamped 1920 . I have no idea if the holster came with it or was something that the gun was just put in. And the mags I also have no clue about. This was all my dads stuff.

09-23-2009, 11:40 PM	#10
NoLuck User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Ontario , Canada Posts: 65 Thanks: 8 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

09-23-2009, 11:53 PM	#11
NoLuck User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Ontario , Canada Posts: 65 Thanks: 8 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

09-24-2009, 01:25 PM	#12
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	After looking at the most recent photos, I now believe the suffix is an incompletely struck "o." This makes the pistol an Alphabet DWM, manufactured in the latter half of 1925 (Still, Weimar Lugers, p. 15). This is more consistent with the other evidence: the 1920 government property stamp on the receiver and the markings on the bottom of the barrel. While 1925 is late for the application of the 1920 property stamp, I have seen it on Lugers manufactured in 1924 and sold to the Landespolizei Thüringen and at least one mid-20s Prussian Schupo Luger. It is rare but apparently some police continued to use it as a property stamp long after the original intent of the stamp was moot. The rest of my discussion above remains valid. While there is no way to prove that the holster and mags were captured with the gun, there is no evidence to the contrary. You have a Luger with a very rare police marking. While I have recorded Type 3 S.Ar.II markings on a holster and two bayonets, this is the only one I have seen on a Luger. Congratulations! Ed, the marking on your tool is an earlier Type 1 marking probably from the Schupo command at Dortmund. It is listed in Table 7-10 of HWIS. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

09-24-2009, 04:24 PM	#13
NoLuck User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Ontario , Canada Posts: 65 Thanks: 8 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Wow that's a surprise ! I don't think he even knew what he had . It's too bad he isn't still alive , he would have loved all this info. I guess before the internet you'd have to read every book on the subject and talk to anyone in the area that had any knowledge,which I know he did often. Even then I guess it was more or less a crapshoot when you bought something.The evidence is right here ! Somewhere he's smiling about this I'll bet !! Thanks very very much. You guys really have some big ol' brains. It amazes me that you can tell so much from a few stamps and a couple of dates ! So now here's the big question What's it worth ?

09-24-2009, 04:35 PM	#14
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Rare, doesn't always mean its valuable ... Especially police guns, they are still mostly unknown to most collectors. The condition of the pistol is rougher than many collectors would want to spend large dollars on, even though its unusual, most folks would not know that. So, let me say what I'd be asking sitting on my table... Luger w/ 1 mag $800-$900 extra magazine is worth around $125-$150 Holster is a nice brown holster and as long as it has not been cut down on the inside; $225-$300 Is there a tool in the little pouch? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-24-2009, 04:39 PM	#15
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Just to add a small detail, one of the belt loop stitchings on the holster has been repaired, but looks restorable.

09-24-2009, 05:49 PM	#16
NoLuck User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Ontario , Canada Posts: 65 Thanks: 8 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Yep tool in the pouch. When I was looking at the stitches in the holster I noticed that the mark where the belt would rub has more to it than I thought. I also have this mag that doesn't seem to (me) go with either of the guns.

09-24-2009, 07:38 PM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	tool is either an unmarked DWM or Mauser and worth around $45 The mag you have is called a "replacement" mag and highly sought after, I have sold them for around $200-$300 because they make a unmatched luger, technically matched (some folks I am sure "renumbered" them). Ed

09-27-2009, 04:10 AM	#18
NoLuck User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Ontario , Canada Posts: 65 Thanks: 8 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thanks a lot for all your help. Are there any other Canadian collectors on here ? I trying to decide what to do with these and am wondering if it's even possible to sell to someone in the US if that's what I decide to do. I'll bet it a huge pain in the ass for both parties but I'd think it'd be much easier selling to another Canadian.

09-27-2009, 04:44 AM	#19
Ice User Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 552 Thanks: 13 Thanked 69 Times in 57 Posts	I have bought a few items from a Canadian collector - no firearms though. He always shipped through UPS and I received them without a problem. Charlie

09-27-2009, 11:26 AM	#20
NoLuck User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Ontario , Canada Posts: 65 Thanks: 8 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Yes I figure the accessories wouldn't be much of a problem, I'm really wondering about the firearms themselves. Anybody done it ?