Luger year by serial?

Roadster 02 · 10-07-2018, 03:45 PM

I am currently looking at a reblued DWM Luger with matching numbers that has had the last two digits of the year on top of the frame buffed off. This pistol has the "Imperial Marks" on the right side, faint "squirrel", strong "squirrel" on the left side toggle, and seems to have all the indications that it is a 1914 military model. I'm new to this, and have limited info available. The serial is 4344e. Can the year be determined? Thanks.

mrerick · 10-07-2018, 04:39 PM

Serial numbers ran from "no suffix" through "z" without the "j" used, and then cycled through again.

Some of the manufacturers restarted them each year, others just kept going until they cycled from "9999z" or "10000z" to "1" again.

It may be possible to determine things from marks and other details. Post good photos.

See our FAQ document for more details.

Norme · 10-07-2018, 06:23 PM

Hi Tom,
One can narrow down the year of manufacture of an Imperial Luger by answering these 3 questions:
Does it have a hold-open?
Does it have a stock lug?
Does it have a relieved sear?
Regards, Norm

kurusu · 10-07-2018, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Tom,
One can narrow down the year of manufacture of an Imperial Luger by answering these 3 questions:
Does it have a hold-open?
Does it have a stock lug?
Does it have a relieved sear?
Regards, Norm

Just to mudd things up a bit.

Most that didn't have originaly the hold-open had it added. But it can be spotted that it was done.

Some sears had the relief cut later on in the field. It can be spotted too.

Edit. And we can rule out before 1910. Chambers weren't dated until then.

kurusu · 10-07-2018, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrerick

Serial numbers ran from "no suffix" through "z" without the "j" used, and then cycled through again.

Some of the manufacturers restarted them each year, others just kept going until they cycled from "9999z" or "10000z" to "1" again.

It may be possible to determine things from marks and other details. Post good photos.

See our FAQ document for more details.

Your'e assuming a mixed parts gun. DWM ran all the numbers, it was Erfurt that started numbers each year.

Roadster 02 · 10-07-2018, 07:50 PM

Added a pic., and more to the description. Yes, it has a hold open. Yes on the stock lug. Not sure on the sear. Not a mixed parts gun. Thanks.

Norme · 10-07-2018, 08:16 PM

Hi Tom,
Well, that’s progress, we now know that your gun dates from late 1913 to late 1918. A clear photo of the left side would narrow it down further.
Norm

Roadster 02 · 10-07-2018, 08:55 PM

Any particular place on the left side? I didn't see any markings other than the serial.

Norme · 10-07-2018, 09:22 PM

Here you go Tom. The first photo shows an unrelieved sear (on a 1913 DWM), the second a relieved sear (on a 1916).
Norm

Roadster 02 · 10-07-2018, 09:24 PM

This one is the relieved version

Norme · 10-07-2018, 09:36 PM

Well now you know it dates from very late 1916 (Nov, Dec), to very late 1918 (11AM, Nov 11th).
Norm

Roadster 02 · 10-07-2018, 09:51 PM

Hey Norm,

Thanks for your help. Is there any way to narrow it down any more short of using some kind of process to recover the lost numbers?

Tom

DonVoigt · 10-07-2018, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurusu

Your'e assuming a mixed parts gun. DWM ran all the numbers, it was Erfurt that started numbers each year.

Not exactly, DWM from 1912 started with 1"ns" , just as did Erfurt when the year changed; with military production. The years from 1908 to 1911 show some strange overlaps.
So there are some years, that did not use all the suffix letters.

DWM commercial production after the change to year dates in 1920 and 21 started over, when the year was dropped, DWM commercials ran the alphabet.

Mauser ran the alphabet to the end; before starting over.

A four digit "e" suffix likely did not appear to 1915 production.
So the OP pistol would likely date to 1915 to 1918.

At least that is what I get from studying Still"s Imperial luger book. See the chart on p15, it is much clearer than my writing.

How is that for mud!

And please, there are no "squirrel" marks on lugers; I have no idea what you mean by that.

Norme · 10-07-2018, 10:02 PM

Hi Tom,
Yes, I could go down stairs to the gun room and look it up for you in Jan C. Stills' "Imperial Lugers" but I'm not going to. I don't want to deny you the pleasure of looking it up for yourself in the finest Luger reference work ever written. It's a little dated now and it ain't cheap, but it will transform your life as a Luger collector, at least it did mine.
Regards, Norm

DonVoigt · 10-07-2018, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadster 02

Hey Norm,

Thanks for your help. Is there any way to narrow it down any more short of using some kind of process to recover the lost numbers?

Tom

Not really, the serial number with 4 digits and "e" limits it to 1915,16,17,or 18. The sear bar could have been relieved post mfg.

The degree of original external polish/finish would give a clue, but still won't get you any closer than 3 years- but this one has had all original finish polished away, so I think you will have to be happy with a 4 year window.

Roadster 02 · 10-07-2018, 10:25 PM

See posting "My first Imperial Luger-1918 DMW page 10 That's where I got it from. Must be called Spandau mark.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Not exactly, DWM from 1912 started with 1"ns" , just as did Erfurt when the year changed; with military production. The years from 1908 to 1911 show some strange overlaps.
So there are some years, that did not use all the suffix letters.

DWM commercial production after the change to year dates in 1920 and 21 started over, when the year was dropped, DWM commercials ran the alphabet.

Mauser ran the alphabet to the end; before starting over.

A four digit "e" suffix likely did not appear to 1915 production.
So the OP pistol would likely date to 1915 to 1918.

At least that is what I get from studying Still"s Imperial luger book. See the chart on p15, it is much clearer than my writing.

How is that for mud!

And please, there are no "squirrel" marks on lugers; I have no idea what you mean by that.

Roadster 02 · 10-07-2018, 10:31 PM

Well thanks for the help you already gave. I'm not going to spend 300+ bucks on more books for another gun collecting hobby at this late date in life. I already have a fortune in books, guns, and parts in my M1 carbine sickness, I'm not gonna go down that road now with Lugers. If I buy this shooter Luger, I will be content to know the date is one of three possible years and keep my $300. Thanks again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Tom,
Yes, I could go down stairs to the gun room and look it up for you in Jan C. Stills' "Imperial Lugers" but I'm not going to. I don't want to deny you the pleasure of looking it up for yourself in the finest Luger reference work ever written. It's a little dated now and it ain't cheap, but it will transform your life as a Luger collector, at least it did mine.
Regards, Norm

DonVoigt · 10-08-2018, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roadster 02

See posting "My first Imperial Luger-1918 DMW page 10 That's where I got it from. Must be called Spandau mark.

Perhaps you are referring to the Imperial Eagle, the final proof marking on military lugers? DWM pistols were inspected by representatives from Spandau ; Erfurt inspectors had their own slightly different proof eagle.

It is the marking nearest the barrel on the right side of the chamber and also present on other pressure bearing parts.
Early DWM military lugers had the proofing on the left side

The pictures below show a DWM pistol and a 1911 Erturt; you can see the Erfurt eagle better on the barrel in this shot, and on the right side.

There is more info on these markings in the stickies.

George Anderson · 10-08-2018, 10:52 AM

The OP's Luger is either a 1917 or 1918 DWM. The underlined Crown/T acceptance stamp is unique to those two years.

Ron Wood · 10-08-2018, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George Anderson

The OP's Luger is either a 1917 or 1918 DWM. The underlined Crown/T acceptance stamp is unique to those two years.

Bingo!

10-07-2018, 03:45 PM	#1
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 298 Thanks: 163 Thanked 228 Times in 77 Posts	Luger year by serial? I am currently looking at a reblued DWM Luger with matching numbers that has had the last two digits of the year on top of the frame buffed off. This pistol has the "Imperial Marks" on the right side, faint "squirrel", strong "squirrel" on the left side toggle, and seems to have all the indications that it is a 1914 military model. I'm new to this, and have limited info available. The serial is 4344e. Can the year be determined? Thanks. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by Roadster 02; 10-07-2018 at 07:47 PM.

10-07-2018, 04:39 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Serial numbers ran from "no suffix" through "z" without the "j" used, and then cycled through again. Some of the manufacturers restarted them each year, others just kept going until they cycled from "9999z" or "10000z" to "1" again. It may be possible to determine things from marks and other details. Post good photos. See our FAQ document for more details. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-07-2018, 09:22 PM	#9
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Here you go Tom. The first photo shows an unrelieved sear (on a 1913 DWM), the second a relieved sear (on a 1916). Norm Attached Thumbnails

10-07-2018, 06:23 PM	#3
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Tom, One can narrow down the year of manufacture of an Imperial Luger by answering these 3 questions: Does it have a hold-open? Does it have a stock lug? Does it have a relieved sear? Regards, Norm

10-07-2018, 07:50 PM	#6
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 298 Thanks: 163 Thanked 228 Times in 77 Posts	Added a pic., and more to the description. Yes, it has a hold open. Yes on the stock lug. Not sure on the sear. Not a mixed parts gun. Thanks.

10-07-2018, 08:16 PM	#7
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Tom, Well, that’s progress, we now know that your gun dates from late 1913 to late 1918. A clear photo of the left side would narrow it down further. Norm

10-07-2018, 08:55 PM	#8
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 298 Thanks: 163 Thanked 228 Times in 77 Posts	Any particular place on the left side? I didn't see any markings other than the serial.

10-07-2018, 09:24 PM	#10
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 298 Thanks: 163 Thanked 228 Times in 77 Posts	This one is the relieved version

10-07-2018, 09:36 PM	#11
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Well now you know it dates from very late 1916 (Nov, Dec), to very late 1918 (11AM, Nov 11th). Norm

10-07-2018, 09:51 PM	#12
Roadster 02 User Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Rocky Mountain High Posts: 298 Thanks: 163 Thanked 228 Times in 77 Posts	Hey Norm, Thanks for your help. Is there any way to narrow it down any more short of using some kind of process to recover the lost numbers? Tom

10-07-2018, 10:02 PM	#14
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Tom, Yes, I could go down stairs to the gun room and look it up for you in Jan C. Stills' "Imperial Lugers" but I'm not going to. I don't want to deny you the pleasure of looking it up for yourself in the finest Luger reference work ever written. It's a little dated now and it ain't cheap, but it will transform your life as a Luger collector, at least it did mine. Regards, Norm

10-08-2018, 10:52 AM	#19
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	The OP's Luger is either a 1917 or 1918 DWM. The underlined Crown/T acceptance stamp is unique to those two years.