Luger 1922 Help

J Clayton · 08-16-2018, 08:04 PM

I'm new to Lugers. I have an opportunity to by one that is claimed to be a 1922. The serial number is 853 with a K stamped under the number on the bottom of the barrel and a K stamped on the bottom/front of the receiver. Can someone confirm the manufacture date of this DWM? Has this gun been re-blued? Value? Tell me anything else that comes to mind. Thanks all.

Dwight Gruber · 08-16-2018, 08:20 PM

Alphabet Commercial Luger. The K stamping is non-standard, could we see a sharp closeup of the barrel and frame serial numbers? This may give a better idea of year of manufacture. From these pictures the finish looks original, and is indeed a fine example.

--Dwight

J Clayton · 08-16-2018, 08:38 PM

Unfortunately, those pics are the best I have for now. What makes the K non-standard?

J Clayton · 08-16-2018, 08:40 PM

They do not comment on whether the numbers match. I have not been able to get inside of the gun.

lugerholsterrepair · 08-16-2018, 09:10 PM

It's non standard because it's out of place. Shouldn't be there on a commercial..

DonVoigt · 08-16-2018, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Clayton

Unfortunately, those pics are the best I have for now. What makes the K non-standard?

J,
Welcome to the forum.
The "K" is stamped over the original suffix - which is unusual or "non standard".

HerrKaiser · 08-16-2018, 09:27 PM

Is there any chance this Luger was a WW1 era re-chamber/configuration to commercial status which had its original suffix letter stamped over?

J Clayton · 08-16-2018, 09:28 PM

I'm suspicious that the gun has been re-blued and the small parts reheated. If I look close to the number and letter stamp under the barrel I see a bit of a "halo", if you will, around the number and letters. Sometime the person re-bluing a gun will avoid putting bluing chemical on stamps to keep the edges sharp. Also, I've looked all over the internet and have yet to see a 1923 with three digit numbers. Is it possible this gun was made to import to the USA?

DonVoigt · 08-16-2018, 09:30 PM

Of course there is a "chance" of most anything, but without more /better pictures hard to say; but all visible markings and the caliber scream "commercial".

J Clayton · 08-16-2018, 09:48 PM

Just read online that there were K dates stamped on 1930's Nazi guns. Also several fake K dates. Is that true? Is this possibly a K date fake?

I'm going to physically inspect it tomorrow.

Btw, it come with a 1914 stamped holster and an early date snail drum.

DavidJayUden · 08-16-2018, 10:48 PM

No, a K date had a large K over the chamber instead of a date. Also this gun appears to be a .30 caliber? This gun is either professionally restored or in unusually nice condition.
dju

ithacaartist · 08-17-2018, 03:27 AM

Re-blued, albeit rather nicely, over what looks like pin-prick pitting on the left side of the frame--unless my old eyes deceive me. Improved pic might help. Nor should the muzzle's crown be blued...and maybe not so weird looking, like chatter in the chamfer?

Dwight Gruber · 08-17-2018, 03:41 AM

In addition to the K being stamped over the serial letter suffix being non-standard, serial letter suffixes are lower case in a particular German script. The K on this pistol is Roman, upper case.

All of the pertinent characteristics shown in the photos indicate this is indeed original post-war manufacture. Particularly noteworthy is the un-chamfered left front frame rail.

The "halo" phenomenon is characteristic of metal stamping after it has been blued. It is much easier for a clever refinisher to re-create the halo effect after bluing, rather than going to the trouble of working around it. This is one of the reasons it is important to see closeups of the barrel and frame stamps.

The three-digit serial number is fully characteristic of DWM's serial number methodology. Pistols in this serial range are numbered from 1 to 9999 with a letter suffix, then the numbering is started over again at 1 with the next alphabet letter. The so called "Alphabet commercial" range, in which this gun is numbered, utilize the letters i through v (the letter j is omitted). The letter suffix is legally part of the serial number.

The GERMANY stamp on the frame indicates the pistol was exported to the US, in accordance with the McKinley Tariff Act of 1891, requiring the identity of the country of manufacture. It would be a bit of an overstatement to say that this pistol was explicitly made for sale in the US. DWM sold their pistols commercially worldwide, and there was no difference in their manufacture. The pistols selected from production stock to send to the US were simply stamped GERMANY to satisfy the US legal requirement.

--Dwight

mrerick · 08-17-2018, 09:26 AM

Here's a photo of the barrel sn area on the barrel of a DWM Alphabet commercial in the "m" block (1923). I believe that this is in original rust blued commercial finish...

The surface metal stress around the digits shows similar oval halos.

It may be the alloy or the light reflectance angle of the photo, the rust bluing process or and depth causing the smooth appearing halos. (note a digit is removed in the photo)

Ron Wood · 08-17-2018, 09:42 AM

I have no idea why the original suffix was over stamped, but to my eye the finish is original and quite nice.

Dwight Gruber · 08-17-2018, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

...numbered from 1 to 99999 with a letter suffix...--Dwight

Oops, should have been 9999, fixed it above.

--Dwight

ithacaartist · 08-17-2018, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

I have no idea why the original suffix was over stamped, but to my eye the finish is original and quite nice.

That last pic is pretty conclusive, so maybe I'll change my mind about the re-blue. Revealing pics help!

J Clayton · 08-17-2018, 09:49 PM

I inspected the gun today. If it was re-blued, they did a very nice job of it. It's a beautiful gun, but the comment above about the upper case K does concern me. The mag has the wooden bottom cover. I'm sure there is probably an official name for it.

These guns are too expensive to make a mistake and buy one counterfeit. I'm told it has been in the same family for 60 years.

About the halo, it only shows on the barrel stamps, not the rest of the gun. I wonder why.

So... is this a buy and what price? The seller is acting like this is the find of the century. Oh... it comes with a stamped 1914 holster. Certainly looks original. Thanks all for the insightful comments.

J Clayton · 08-17-2018, 09:56 PM

Also, physical inspection shows that the top of the receiver was probably ground smooth ...removing the original date? The top is thinner from the barrel than on the sides. Is that normal?

DonVoigt · 08-17-2018, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Clayton

Also, physical inspection shows that the top of the receiver was probably ground smooth ...removing the original date? The top is thinner from the barrel than on the sides. Is that normal?

Commercial models did not have a date; what you see is likely "normal".

Better for you to tell us what he is "asking", much easier to get a
"good or bad" than a number.

A .30 cal. commercial luger is common, and the least expensive version(other than re-blued, mismatched, etc). It is not a buy unless you want a .30 luger as the ammo is expensive compared with 9mm; it is not a rare version; and the over stamped "K" reduces its value even further. JMHO.

08-16-2018, 08:04 PM	#1
J Clayton User Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 1 Post	Luger 1922 Help I'm new to Lugers. I have an opportunity to by one that is claimed to be a 1922. The serial number is 853 with a K stamped under the number on the bottom of the barrel and a K stamped on the bottom/front of the receiver. Can someone confirm the manufacture date of this DWM? Has this gun been re-blued? Value? Tell me anything else that comes to mind. Thanks all. Attached Thumbnails

08-16-2018, 09:10 PM	#5
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	It's non standard because it's out of place. Shouldn't be there on a commercial.. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-16-2018, 09:27 PM	#7
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 800 Thanks: 750 Thanked 793 Times in 376 Posts	Is there any chance this Luger was a WW1 era re-chamber/configuration to commercial status which had its original suffix letter stamped over? __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

08-16-2018, 09:30 PM	#9
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Of course there is a "chance" of most anything, but without more /better pictures hard to say; but all visible markings and the caliber scream "commercial". __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

08-17-2018, 03:27 AM	#12
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,282 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	Re-blued, albeit rather nicely, over what looks like pin-prick pitting on the left side of the frame--unless my old eyes deceive me. Improved pic might help. Nor should the muzzle's crown be blued...and maybe not so weird looking, like chatter in the chamfer? __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

08-16-2018, 08:20 PM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	Alphabet Commercial Luger. The K stamping is non-standard, could we see a sharp closeup of the barrel and frame serial numbers? This may give a better idea of year of manufacture. From these pictures the finish looks original, and is indeed a fine example. --Dwight

08-16-2018, 08:38 PM	#3
J Clayton User Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 1 Post	Unfortunately, those pics are the best I have for now. What makes the K non-standard?

08-16-2018, 08:40 PM	#4
J Clayton User Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 1 Post	They do not comment on whether the numbers match. I have not been able to get inside of the gun.

08-16-2018, 09:28 PM	#8
J Clayton User Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 1 Post	I'm suspicious that the gun has been re-blued and the small parts reheated. If I look close to the number and letter stamp under the barrel I see a bit of a "halo", if you will, around the number and letters. Sometime the person re-bluing a gun will avoid putting bluing chemical on stamps to keep the edges sharp. Also, I've looked all over the internet and have yet to see a 1923 with three digit numbers. Is it possible this gun was made to import to the USA?

08-16-2018, 09:48 PM	#10
J Clayton User Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 1 Post	Just read online that there were K dates stamped on 1930's Nazi guns. Also several fake K dates. Is that true? Is this possibly a K date fake? I'm going to physically inspect it tomorrow. Btw, it come with a 1914 stamped holster and an early date snail drum.

08-16-2018, 10:48 PM	#11
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	No, a K date had a large K over the chamber instead of a date. Also this gun appears to be a .30 caliber? This gun is either professionally restored or in unusually nice condition. dju

08-17-2018, 03:41 AM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	In addition to the K being stamped over the serial letter suffix being non-standard, serial letter suffixes are lower case in a particular German script. The K on this pistol is Roman, upper case. All of the pertinent characteristics shown in the photos indicate this is indeed original post-war manufacture. Particularly noteworthy is the un-chamfered left front frame rail. The "halo" phenomenon is characteristic of metal stamping after it has been blued. It is much easier for a clever refinisher to re-create the halo effect after bluing, rather than going to the trouble of working around it. This is one of the reasons it is important to see closeups of the barrel and frame stamps. The three-digit serial number is fully characteristic of DWM's serial number methodology. Pistols in this serial range are numbered from 1 to 9999 with a letter suffix, then the numbering is started over again at 1 with the next alphabet letter. The so called "Alphabet commercial" range, in which this gun is numbered, utilize the letters i through v (the letter j is omitted). The letter suffix is legally part of the serial number. The GERMANY stamp on the frame indicates the pistol was exported to the US, in accordance with the McKinley Tariff Act of 1891, requiring the identity of the country of manufacture. It would be a bit of an overstatement to say that this pistol was explicitly made for sale in the US. DWM sold their pistols commercially worldwide, and there was no difference in their manufacture. The pistols selected from production stock to send to the US were simply stamped GERMANY to satisfy the US legal requirement. --Dwight Last edited by Dwight Gruber; 08-17-2018 at 12:08 PM.

08-17-2018, 09:26 AM	#14
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Here's a photo of the barrel sn area on the barrel of a DWM Alphabet commercial in the "m" block (1923). I believe that this is in original rust blued commercial finish... The surface metal stress around the digits shows similar oval halos. It may be the alloy or the light reflectance angle of the photo, the rust bluing process or and depth causing the smooth appearing halos. (note a digit is removed in the photo) Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

08-17-2018, 09:42 AM	#15
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	I have no idea why the original suffix was over stamped, but to my eye the finish is original and quite nice. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-17-2018, 09:49 PM	#18
J Clayton User Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 1 Post	I inspected the gun today. If it was re-blued, they did a very nice job of it. It's a beautiful gun, but the comment above about the upper case K does concern me. The mag has the wooden bottom cover. I'm sure there is probably an official name for it. These guns are too expensive to make a mistake and buy one counterfeit. I'm told it has been in the same family for 60 years. About the halo, it only shows on the barrel stamps, not the rest of the gun. I wonder why. So... is this a buy and what price? The seller is acting like this is the find of the century. Oh... it comes with a stamped 1914 holster. Certainly looks original. Thanks all for the insightful comments.

08-17-2018, 09:56 PM	#19
J Clayton User Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 4 Times in 1 Post	Also, physical inspection shows that the top of the receiver was probably ground smooth ...removing the original date? The top is thinner from the barrel than on the sides. Is that normal?