Bring-Back Luger, Can anyone give me info on it?

Romstar81 · 10-20-2018, 08:08 PM

I received this from my dad who got it from an American vet of the European theatre in WWII.

It is not matching, one part has the mismatched number "73" and the rest is "711."
Also, the holster has a weird marking in it 'HLO."

What is this worth and anyone know whats up with the markings in the holster? not looking to sell, just want to know more about it.

mrerick · 10-20-2018, 08:16 PM

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

Looks like a mixed parts DWM 1914 Luger. At least the take down lever and trigger plate have been replaced. Finish may well be original, but it's hard to judge in photos. Look for halos around the numeric digits stamped into the barrel.

There may be a suffix letter under the numeric digits on the frame. If so, it's part of the serial number.

The coarse stitching of the holster may not be typical of a period WW-II holster, and the pattern looks like it's possibly a P.38 holster.

There is alot of information in our FAQ document. Please enjoy.

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showpost.php?p=287575

As a higher end mismatched pistol, it's probably worth $750-$850 if it functions properly.

4 Scale · 10-20-2018, 09:57 PM

A nice looking military pistol. In terms of value, collectors prefer all numbered parts match especially those that are visible. Given that two visible parts do not match I'd consider it a 'shooter' or perhaps a lower end collectible if it is in very good condition with original finish, which is possible (difficult to tell from the photos). I've always found it difficult to value pistols because of the variables such as original finish/% finish remaining and if the other parts including the grips match. You might check Simpson's website, they have pistols with one or more missing parts from time to time, perusing the site can give an idea of high retail value.

Romstar81 · 10-21-2018, 10:04 AM

Thanks for the good feedback. I do see that it is a mis-match and the info on the holster is interesting. In regards to its functioning, it works perfectly. Its been shot a few times; however, I hesitate to shoot it because replacing parts for it if one breaks would be a pain in the butt.

For now ill add it to my collection and just admire the history behind it and wonder what it would say if it could tell its story.

Robert in NC · 10-22-2018, 10:14 AM

I've a fondness for WW1 Lugers, unfortunately not the budget to match, so a 1914 mismatched gun in the apparent condition of yours, that functioned properly, would be fine by me.

Were I currently in the market for one (alas, I'm not) I'd be looking at $900 - $1000 for that gun. But I'm more of just "a person who likes WW1 Lugers" than a serious collector, so I'd probably be willing to pay more than a collector would in general for a mismatched gun from that era, and not willing to pay as much as a collector would for a similar gun that was all matching and with good finish.

Romstar81 · 10-22-2018, 05:08 PM

I am not going to sell it, yet. Thank you, though. I will message you if I change my mind. I have one last question about this one.
The story behind it was taken from an SS tank commander in the battle of the bulge. Not sure how much of that is true, if any. How could I possibly know any of this? I thought the SS marked all their stuff?

HerrKaiser · 10-22-2018, 05:24 PM

Like most war stories, take them with a grain of salt. That late in the war, no one would have been that anal about attention to details in terms of proper stamps and marks nor issue dates. In theory, a WW1 pistol should also have a 1920 property mark that yours lacks if it was still German. As for the SS officer stuff, that type of story generally sounds a lot better than ones such as “there was a pile of them outside a surrendered weapons depot that soldiers could take if they wished” “I won it in a poker tournament on the ship home.” Or “I was just scrounging the battlefield aftermath and happened to be the first guy to discover an enemy corpse with a Luger “

Sergio Natali · 10-23-2018, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romstar81

I am not going to sell it, yet. Thank you, though. I will message you if I change my mind. I have one last question about this one.
The story behind it was taken from an SS tank commander in the battle of the bulge. Not sure how much of that is true, if any. How could I possibly know any of this? I thought the SS marked all their stuff?

Still I can't understand why a gun that "might" have belonged to a SS criminal should be considered much more valuable...

anyway apart from this rant, FWIK officers generally never had Lugers on thjeir side but smaller pistols like Walther PP and PPK.

Romstar81 · 10-23-2018, 08:44 AM

I agree. There is no way of knowing where this thing came from. The most likely story of its existence is that it was used by some reservist. The mis-matched holster and obvious wear on it make it seem like one that was either thrown together quick for some poor SOB reserve soldier that was going to see his final days in combat or, was personal property of someone that used it to fight. Officers usually carried smaller pistols but I thought they also sometimes used their own gun they purchased or had. Hard to say...Ill let the SS story go since I think it is the more doubtful of any.
Now, the card game story and/or finding it in a pile near a munitions factory...id say those theories are low on the spectrum of possibility since the person that we got this from was not one to be totally full of S---;however, I do understand if some on this board are used to people like that and just expect that of others when giving and/or receiving items or information. Though luck for you there...sorry.

mrerick · 10-23-2018, 09:37 AM

It was always more exciting sounding to position yourself against the evil SS and (as a lowly soldier) against a German officer. Embellishment... even with the most honest of people is also a compensation for the abject evil they witnessed and difficult experiences they participate in.

German officers didn't normally carry Lugers. As mentioned, almost always carrying smaller and lighter pocket pistols that they purchased themselves. There were rules for uniforms, and beyond that conforming to standards was more likely than doing something that made your uniform "stand out" as unusual. People like Patton both wanted to stand out, and had the power to do so. Not the average officer on either side.

No rule on this is absolute, but the government didn't routinely issue officers Lugers.

There are also stories of soldiers discarding firearms just before being captured, and disabling them prior to discarding them. A typical method for disabling a Luger is to toss out the trigger plate. That is plausible, but also unlikely since a fighting soldier would want to defend his life until the moment he's forcefully disarmed.

What's more likely is that after bringing it home, the plate was hidden to prevent accidents with children in a home previously unfamiliar with firearms.

All stories like this are anecdotal, and should be treated that way.

Norme · 10-23-2018, 09:45 AM

Hi Carl,
"Capture stories" are a source of great amusement to some of the more seasoned collectors here on the forum, they almost always feature a member of the SS and usually an officer. I envy you your childish innocence.
Norm

sheepherder · 10-23-2018, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romstar81

Now, the card game story and/or finding it in a pile near a munitions factory...id say those theories are low on the spectrum of possibility since the person that we got this from was not one to be totally full of S---;however, I do understand if some on this board are used to people like that and just expect that of others when giving and/or receiving items or information.

Everyone embellishes their stories. No one is going to say they caught a Feldwebel taking a dump and smacked him over the head with an E-tool, Then had to separate the Luger from the resulting mess. Much more satisfying to say it was surrendered by the enemy in combat.

You want Luger fantasy, go over to PIA and read their descriptions of rare desirable Lugers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert in NC

I'd probably be willing to pay more than a collector would in general for a mismatched gun...and not willing to pay as much as a collector would for a similar gun that was all matching and with good finish.

I've paraphrased this statement slightly. It most closely captures my philosophy on anything.

Right-click & Save!

Romstar81 · 10-23-2018, 10:27 AM

Thank you all for the great input!

Excellent information on this forum and, as for my "childish innocence," I am glad that attribute of mine is important enough for you to take time out of your busy day to even comment on, Norm.

Be well!

HerrKaiser · 10-23-2018, 11:41 AM

Romstar, just as my 2 cents in this. My first Luger I bought is a 1920 commercial in .30 with a 5 digit serial number and clear export stamp GERMANY on the side. The guy I bought it from gave it to me with a 1938 holster and told me it was captured off of an SS officer and was a bring back. I am lucky that I didn’t end up overpaying for it since I failed to do the research to see the clear fantasy in the story he sold to a wide eyed first time Luger buyer.

Romstar81 · 10-23-2018, 12:17 PM

Yes, thank you, HerrKaiser. I have no doubt that this gun is likely one of millions that were found. The fun SS story may be a big fish story and I accept that. The dude that got it may have seen "SS" on the coat or collar of the shirt on the dead guy he took it off of. That means nothing really since, at the time of the Battle of the Bulge, the Germans were desperate and using anything that would fire and probably wearing coats and clothing from anyone they could find to simply keep warm. All I really know is that no one actually knows the story except the dude that brought it back and he is in the ground now. Its really no big deal. I am not challenging anyone's "knowledge" or "expertise" on this matter.

Just a thought to all of the commentators, I didn't pay for this. It was simply a gift. My collection of guns mainly includes NFA items and several different Kalashnikov variants so this is a totally new item for me.
Again, thank you for the feedback. I really enjoy the pistol and am glad we all can have such a robust conversation about it.

Sergio Natali · 10-23-2018, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Romstar81

Yes, thank you, HerrKaiser. I have no doubt that this gun is likely one of millions that were found. The fun SS story may be a big fish story and I accept that. The dude that got it may have seen "SS" on the coat or collar of the shirt on the dead guy he took it off of. That means nothing really since, at the time of the Battle of the Bulge, the Germans were desperate and using anything that would fire and probably wearing coats and clothing from anyone they could find to simply keep warm. All I really know is that no one actually knows the story except the dude that brought it back and he is in the ground now. Its really no big deal. I am not challenging anyone's "knowledge" or "expertise" on this matter.

Just a thought to all of the commentators, I didn't pay for this. It was simply a gift. My collection of guns mainly includes NFA items and several different Kalashnikov variants so this is a totally new item for me.
Again, thank you for the feedback. I really enjoy the pistol and am glad we all can have such a robust conversation about it.

Good, and the first thing is to enjoy the whole thing while we learn collecting or shooting our guns.
Some of us, me included, may sound a bit harsh or grumpy sometimes, but we all are Luger aficionados.

Best regards.

hayhugh · 10-23-2018, 02:10 PM

Yep, Norm is probably just having a grumpy morning...…….

10-20-2018, 08:08 PM	#1
Romstar81 User Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 6 Thanks: 8 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Bring-Back Luger, Can anyone give me info on it? I received this from my dad who got it from an American vet of the European theatre in WWII. It is not matching, one part has the mismatched number "73" and the rest is "711." Also, the holster has a weird marking in it 'HLO." What is this worth and anyone know whats up with the markings in the holster? not looking to sell, just want to know more about it. Attached Thumbnails

10-20-2018, 08:16 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Hi, and welcome to the forum. Looks like a mixed parts DWM 1914 Luger. At least the take down lever and trigger plate have been replaced. Finish may well be original, but it's hard to judge in photos. Look for halos around the numeric digits stamped into the barrel. There may be a suffix letter under the numeric digits on the frame. If so, it's part of the serial number. The coarse stitching of the holster may not be typical of a period WW-II holster, and the pattern looks like it's possibly a P.38 holster. There is alot of information in our FAQ document. Please enjoy. http://forum.lugerforum.com/showpost.php?p=287575 As a higher end mismatched pistol, it's probably worth $750-$850 if it functions properly. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war. Last edited by mrerick; 10-21-2018 at 09:31 AM.

10-22-2018, 05:24 PM	#7
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 800 Thanks: 750 Thanked 793 Times in 376 Posts	Like most war stories, take them with a grain of salt. That late in the war, no one would have been that anal about attention to details in terms of proper stamps and marks nor issue dates. In theory, a WW1 pistol should also have a 1920 property mark that yours lacks if it was still German. As for the SS officer stuff, that type of story generally sounds a lot better than ones such as “there was a pile of them outside a surrendered weapons depot that soldiers could take if they wished” “I won it in a poker tournament on the ship home.” Or “I was just scrounging the battlefield aftermath and happened to be the first guy to discover an enemy corpse with a Luger “ __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

10-23-2018, 09:37 AM	#10
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	It was always more exciting sounding to position yourself against the evil SS and (as a lowly soldier) against a German officer. Embellishment... even with the most honest of people is also a compensation for the abject evil they witnessed and difficult experiences they participate in. German officers didn't normally carry Lugers. As mentioned, almost always carrying smaller and lighter pocket pistols that they purchased themselves. There were rules for uniforms, and beyond that conforming to standards was more likely than doing something that made your uniform "stand out" as unusual. People like Patton both wanted to stand out, and had the power to do so. Not the average officer on either side. No rule on this is absolute, but the government didn't routinely issue officers Lugers. There are also stories of soldiers discarding firearms just before being captured, and disabling them prior to discarding them. A typical method for disabling a Luger is to toss out the trigger plate. That is plausible, but also unlikely since a fighting soldier would want to defend his life until the moment he's forcefully disarmed. What's more likely is that after bringing it home, the plate was hidden to prevent accidents with children in a home previously unfamiliar with firearms. All stories like this are anecdotal, and should be treated that way. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-23-2018, 11:41 AM	#14
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 800 Thanks: 750 Thanked 793 Times in 376 Posts	Romstar, just as my 2 cents in this. My first Luger I bought is a 1920 commercial in .30 with a 5 digit serial number and clear export stamp GERMANY on the side. The guy I bought it from gave it to me with a 1938 holster and told me it was captured off of an SS officer and was a bring back. I am lucky that I didn’t end up overpaying for it since I failed to do the research to see the clear fantasy in the story he sold to a wide eyed first time Luger buyer. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

10-20-2018, 09:57 PM	#3
4 Scale User Join Date: Nov 2014 Posts: 544 Thanks: 194 Thanked 489 Times in 251 Posts	A nice looking military pistol. In terms of value, collectors prefer all numbered parts match especially those that are visible. Given that two visible parts do not match I'd consider it a 'shooter' or perhaps a lower end collectible if it is in very good condition with original finish, which is possible (difficult to tell from the photos). I've always found it difficult to value pistols because of the variables such as original finish/% finish remaining and if the other parts including the grips match. You might check Simpson's website, they have pistols with one or more missing parts from time to time, perusing the site can give an idea of high retail value.

10-21-2018, 10:04 AM	#4
Romstar81 User Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 6 Thanks: 8 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Thanks for the good feedback. I do see that it is a mis-match and the info on the holster is interesting. In regards to its functioning, it works perfectly. Its been shot a few times; however, I hesitate to shoot it because replacing parts for it if one breaks would be a pain in the butt. For now ill add it to my collection and just admire the history behind it and wonder what it would say if it could tell its story.

10-22-2018, 10:14 AM	#5
Robert in NC User Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: North Carolina Posts: 32 Thanks: 32 Thanked 22 Times in 11 Posts	I've a fondness for WW1 Lugers, unfortunately not the budget to match, so a 1914 mismatched gun in the apparent condition of yours, that functioned properly, would be fine by me. Were I currently in the market for one (alas, I'm not) I'd be looking at $900 - $1000 for that gun. But I'm more of just "a person who likes WW1 Lugers" than a serious collector, so I'd probably be willing to pay more than a collector would in general for a mismatched gun from that era, and not willing to pay as much as a collector would for a similar gun that was all matching and with good finish.

10-22-2018, 05:08 PM	#6
Romstar81 User Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 6 Thanks: 8 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	I am not going to sell it, yet. Thank you, though. I will message you if I change my mind. I have one last question about this one. The story behind it was taken from an SS tank commander in the battle of the bulge. Not sure how much of that is true, if any. How could I possibly know any of this? I thought the SS marked all their stuff?

10-23-2018, 08:44 AM	#9
Romstar81 User Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 6 Thanks: 8 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	I agree. There is no way of knowing where this thing came from. The most likely story of its existence is that it was used by some reservist. The mis-matched holster and obvious wear on it make it seem like one that was either thrown together quick for some poor SOB reserve soldier that was going to see his final days in combat or, was personal property of someone that used it to fight. Officers usually carried smaller pistols but I thought they also sometimes used their own gun they purchased or had. Hard to say...Ill let the SS story go since I think it is the more doubtful of any. Now, the card game story and/or finding it in a pile near a munitions factory...id say those theories are low on the spectrum of possibility since the person that we got this from was not one to be totally full of S---;however, I do understand if some on this board are used to people like that and just expect that of others when giving and/or receiving items or information. Though luck for you there...sorry.

10-23-2018, 09:45 AM	#11
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Carl, "Capture stories" are a source of great amusement to some of the more seasoned collectors here on the forum, they almost always feature a member of the SS and usually an officer. I envy you your childish innocence. Norm

10-23-2018, 10:27 AM	#13
Romstar81 User Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 6 Thanks: 8 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Thank you all for the great input! Excellent information on this forum and, as for my "childish innocence," I am glad that attribute of mine is important enough for you to take time out of your busy day to even comment on, Norm. Be well!

10-23-2018, 12:17 PM	#15
Romstar81 User Join Date: Oct 2018 Posts: 6 Thanks: 8 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts	Yes, thank you, HerrKaiser. I have no doubt that this gun is likely one of millions that were found. The fun SS story may be a big fish story and I accept that. The dude that got it may have seen "SS" on the coat or collar of the shirt on the dead guy he took it off of. That means nothing really since, at the time of the Battle of the Bulge, the Germans were desperate and using anything that would fire and probably wearing coats and clothing from anyone they could find to simply keep warm. All I really know is that no one actually knows the story except the dude that brought it back and he is in the ground now. Its really no big deal. I am not challenging anyone's "knowledge" or "expertise" on this matter. Just a thought to all of the commentators, I didn't pay for this. It was simply a gift. My collection of guns mainly includes NFA items and several different Kalashnikov variants so this is a totally new item for me. Again, thank you for the feedback. I really enjoy the pistol and am glad we all can have such a robust conversation about it.

10-23-2018, 02:10 PM	#17
hayhugh User Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Florida/Penna Posts: 882 Thanks: 848 Thanked 507 Times in 270 Posts	Yep, Norm is probably just having a grumpy morning...…….