Ballistics question: Recoil starts AFTER round leaves barrel? or not?

RShaw · 09-10-2017, 11:36 AM

Hi All,

The title says it all, a question for you experts:

When a round is fired, has the bullet exited the barrel BEFORE recoil starts to take place? Or does the gun start it's recoil while the bullet is still travelling down the barrel?

Reason I am asking is that, using Winchester White box 115 gr, ECO 124 gr, and S&B 115 gr, I am missing a standard 25 m target 40% of the time at 25 meters, no real "group" can be detected.

I don't think I am flinching... and my sight picture is OK (front sight sharp, lined up with rear sight notch, target out of focus, center of target sits on top of the front sight), steady trigger pull, one hand.
I allow the gun to recoil freely, I am not trying to "hold it down." Normal recoil direction is UP, and to the LEFT. I have not bench tested the gun yet.

With the same basic technique, I get fairly good groups (2 inches diameter 5 rounds) on a 10 m target at 10 m using a 22 cal Smith & Wesson Model 41 with Mini Mags. (Oc course recoil is far less)

I know the P08 is an accurate firearm, so I think the problem lies with me, rather than the gun. Any input is much appreciated.

P08 in question is a recently aquired shooter: (I have mentioned this in a previous thread):
http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=36454

FINALLY the paper work has come through)

Please see photos below

kurusu · 09-10-2017, 11:47 AM

Well, yes and no.

When the action starts to open. The bullet is long gone. So, felt recoil is experienced after the bullet has hit the target. But the reaction an motion start the moment the primer ignites.

But to see if you are flinching or not, get some snap caps and dry fire pointing at a blank wall. If the sights move when you release the trigger. You are doing it wrong.

Repeat the exercise countless times everyday until it doesn't happen anymore.

PS. WWB has been crap lately, ECO I don't know, you should be allright with the 115 gr S&B

RShaw · 09-10-2017, 11:56 AM

But to see if you are flinching or not, get some snap caps and dry fire pointing at a blank wall. If the sights move when you release the trigger. You are doing it wrong.

Repeat the exercise countless times everyday until it doesn't happen anymore.

OK. I'll do that.
Should I try to prevent the recoil motion? Or just let it "do what it wants?"
Thanks!

mrerick · 09-10-2017, 12:31 PM

Another exercise you can do with a gun with only snap caps (not loaded with real ammunition) is to work on your trigger control.

Take a nickle or quarter and balance it on the barrel, supporting the front edge of the coin with the flat portion of the front sight. Slowly aim, grip properly and release the trigger/sear into a snap cap that will support the firing pin/striker.

You should eventually be able to relese the trigger without disturbing the balanced coin.

There is a well known pattern to various problems with hold control, trigger control and follow through.

You'll see a variety of "Diagnostic Targets" when you search on Google.

They can be helpful if there is a pattern to your off target shots.

In answer to your question, you cannot stop recoil motion. What you do is use a correct grip and stance to focus the recoil into the mass of your body. Your body mass will absorb the recoil and minimize motion following the shot.

This is called follow through, and is dependent upon proper hold control and body position. The recoil force should not disturb your grip in any way. Your wrist angle and arm position should channel the force down the bones of your arm and into the mass of your upper body.

I teach the NRA rifle and pistol courses, and know that a coach with experience observing shooting can help you quite a bit by giving you feedback as you shoot. The best way to improve shooting accuracy is to identify and concentrate on one correction at a time. Once that has improved, you move to the next observed issue.

Finally, another technique I like is called the "ballistic pencil". You prepare an index card with a round target dot. You size the target dot to be the width of the front sight when you stand with the barrel about six inches away from the target dot. Place a sharpened No. 2 pencil down the 9mm barrel, putting the erase into contact with the breech face. With the muzzle about six inches from the target dot, you fire, making the pencil shoot out of the front of the barrel and the pencil lead leaving a dot on the paper below the target dot. Your objective is to make those dots converge as closely as possible. i put shrink wrap around the metal eraser mount to protect the barrel rifling.

Marc

sheepherder · 09-10-2017, 01:35 PM

...

... Visual aids...

RShaw · 09-10-2017, 01:46 PM

Mrerick, Sheepherder.... Many MANY Thanks !!

I have some work to do......... will let you know....

4 Scale · 09-12-2017, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurusu

But to see if you are flinching or not, get some snap caps and dry fire pointing at a blank wall. If the sights move when you release the trigger. You are doing it wrong.

I think this is very good coaching.

A derivation of the technique at the range is, first load a snap cap, then a live round (live round at the top of the stack). Aim and fire the live round; the action will cycle and load the snap cap. Then dry fire the snap cap.

Snap cap is needed because it is not recommended to release the firing pin on a Luger without either a round or a snap cap. Firing a snap cap immediatly after a live round will make you more "honest" on your snap cap release.

This video demonstrates..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxyTFzgWjhk

RShaw · 09-12-2017, 05:09 PM

Hadn't thought of mixing live rounds and snap caps

Have to try that - Thanks!

DonVoigt · 09-12-2017, 06:41 PM

It is probably you.

You need to know "where" you are missing the target, so get a larger target or move closer.

You may also be simply shooting over the target due to the difference between POA and POI on a typical military luger.

RShaw · 09-13-2017, 01:43 AM

Last targets were somewhat better, but several rounds went high and to the left.
Thanks...

Sergio Natali · 09-13-2017, 02:14 AM

Recoil is felt long after the bullet has left the muzzle.

I've been going to the range since I was 26 years old (now I'm almost 63), and still go to generally twice a week, but sometimes especially if I chage pistol and caliber I like inserting a snap cap in the mag at random among other bullets just to check if I flinch.

Enjoy and shoot safe!

RShaw · 09-13-2017, 02:51 AM

Thanks!!
Perhaps it is somewhat ammunition related... I see this when shooting target 22 cal.
But most of it is my technique I think.... (I hope so!!)
The technique I'm using now works well for 22 cal target, but I'm not dealing with recoil of course.
Therefore the original ballistics question.

Eugen · 09-14-2017, 08:42 AM

RShaw, you are getting great advice. I seem to be always working on my flinching. I get better, but then I can relapse. Mixing snap caps with live rounds is most revealing. Try it, you may be astonished as to how much you may be flinching.

RShaw · 09-14-2017, 09:30 AM

Yes Eugen, you're right!!
Have to try the snap cap - live round mix- had not thought of that

)
I am probably flinching more than I realize.

BUT I do not understand why that makes a difference if the bullet is long gone when the recoil is felt. Flinching would then occur after the round has left the gun. Then the main factor is your sight picture when the firing pin strikes the primer- I would think....

kurusu · 09-14-2017, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RShaw

Yes Eugen, you're right!!
Have to try the snap cap - live round mix- had not thought of that

)
I am probably flinching more than I realize.

BUT I do not understand why that makes a difference if the bullet is long gone when the recoil is felt. Flinching would then occur after the round has left the gun. Then the main factor is your sight picture when the firing pin strikes the primer- I would think....

That's because flinching mostly occurs when you release the trigger. You are probably antecipating recoil.

09-10-2017, 11:36 AM	#1
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	Ballistics question: Recoil starts AFTER round leaves barrel? or not? Hi All, The title says it all, a question for you experts: When a round is fired, has the bullet exited the barrel BEFORE recoil starts to take place? Or does the gun start it's recoil while the bullet is still travelling down the barrel? Reason I am asking is that, using Winchester White box 115 gr, ECO 124 gr, and S&B 115 gr, I am missing a standard 25 m target 40% of the time at 25 meters, no real "group" can be detected. I don't think I am flinching... and my sight picture is OK (front sight sharp, lined up with rear sight notch, target out of focus, center of target sits on top of the front sight), steady trigger pull, one hand. I allow the gun to recoil freely, I am not trying to "hold it down." Normal recoil direction is UP, and to the LEFT. I have not bench tested the gun yet. With the same basic technique, I get fairly good groups (2 inches diameter 5 rounds) on a 10 m target at 10 m using a 22 cal Smith & Wesson Model 41 with Mini Mags. (Oc course recoil is far less) I know the P08 is an accurate firearm, so I think the problem lies with me, rather than the gun. Any input is much appreciated. P08 in question is a recently aquired shooter: (I have mentioned this in a previous thread): http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=36454 FINALLY the paper work has come through) Please see photos below Attached Thumbnails __________________ Enjoying any firearm is like staying happily married- take her out on a regular basis, treat her with respect and pay attention to proper maintenance. Looking for magazine no. 7097 Venlo, the Netherlands- RShaw

09-10-2017, 11:56 AM	#3
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	But to see if you are flinching or not, get some snap caps and dry fire pointing at a blank wall. If the sights move when you release the trigger. You are doing it wrong. Repeat the exercise countless times everyday until it doesn't happen anymore. OK. I'll do that. Should I try to prevent the recoil motion? Or just let it "do what it wants?" Thanks! __________________ Enjoying any firearm is like staying happily married- take her out on a regular basis, treat her with respect and pay attention to proper maintenance. Looking for magazine no. 7097 Venlo, the Netherlands- RShaw

09-10-2017, 12:31 PM	#4
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Another exercise you can do with a gun with only snap caps (not loaded with real ammunition) is to work on your trigger control. Take a nickle or quarter and balance it on the barrel, supporting the front edge of the coin with the flat portion of the front sight. Slowly aim, grip properly and release the trigger/sear into a snap cap that will support the firing pin/striker. You should eventually be able to relese the trigger without disturbing the balanced coin. There is a well known pattern to various problems with hold control, trigger control and follow through. You'll see a variety of "Diagnostic Targets" when you search on Google. They can be helpful if there is a pattern to your off target shots. In answer to your question, you cannot stop recoil motion. What you do is use a correct grip and stance to focus the recoil into the mass of your body. Your body mass will absorb the recoil and minimize motion following the shot. This is called follow through, and is dependent upon proper hold control and body position. The recoil force should not disturb your grip in any way. Your wrist angle and arm position should channel the force down the bones of your arm and into the mass of your upper body. I teach the NRA rifle and pistol courses, and know that a coach with experience observing shooting can help you quite a bit by giving you feedback as you shoot. The best way to improve shooting accuracy is to identify and concentrate on one correction at a time. Once that has improved, you move to the next observed issue. Finally, another technique I like is called the "ballistic pencil". You prepare an index card with a round target dot. You size the target dot to be the width of the front sight when you stand with the barrel about six inches away from the target dot. Place a sharpened No. 2 pencil down the 9mm barrel, putting the erase into contact with the breech face. With the muzzle about six inches from the target dot, you fire, making the pencil shoot out of the front of the barrel and the pencil lead leaving a dot on the paper below the target dot. Your objective is to make those dots converge as closely as possible. i put shrink wrap around the metal eraser mount to protect the barrel rifling. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

09-10-2017, 01:35 PM	#5
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	... ... Visual aids... Attached Thumbnails __________________ I like my coffee the way I like my women... ...Cold and bitter...

09-10-2017, 01:46 PM	#6
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	Mrerick, Sheepherder.... Many MANY Thanks !! I have some work to do......... will let you know.... __________________ Enjoying any firearm is like staying happily married- take her out on a regular basis, treat her with respect and pay attention to proper maintenance. Looking for magazine no. 7097 Venlo, the Netherlands- RShaw

09-10-2017, 11:47 AM	#2
kurusu User Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,225 Thanks: 2,679 Thanked 929 Times in 509 Posts	Well, yes and no. When the action starts to open. The bullet is long gone. So, felt recoil is experienced after the bullet has hit the target. But the reaction an motion start the moment the primer ignites. But to see if you are flinching or not, get some snap caps and dry fire pointing at a blank wall. If the sights move when you release the trigger. You are doing it wrong. Repeat the exercise countless times everyday until it doesn't happen anymore. PS. WWB has been crap lately, ECO I don't know, you should be allright with the 115 gr S&B

09-12-2017, 05:09 PM	#8
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	Hadn't thought of mixing live rounds and snap caps Have to try that - Thanks!

09-12-2017, 06:41 PM	#9
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	It is probably you. You need to know "where" you are missing the target, so get a larger target or move closer. You may also be simply shooting over the target due to the difference between POA and POI on a typical military luger. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

09-13-2017, 01:43 AM	#10
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	Last targets were somewhat better, but several rounds went high and to the left. Thanks...

09-13-2017, 02:14 AM	#11
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Recoil is felt long after the bullet has left the muzzle. I've been going to the range since I was 26 years old (now I'm almost 63), and still go to generally twice a week, but sometimes especially if I chage pistol and caliber I like inserting a snap cap in the mag at random among other bullets just to check if I flinch. Enjoy and shoot safe! __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

09-13-2017, 02:51 AM	#12
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	Thanks!! Perhaps it is somewhat ammunition related... I see this when shooting target 22 cal. But most of it is my technique I think.... (I hope so!!) The technique I'm using now works well for 22 cal target, but I'm not dealing with recoil of course. Therefore the original ballistics question.

09-14-2017, 08:42 AM	#13
Eugen User Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Newburgh,IN Posts: 757 Thanks: 366 Thanked 594 Times in 313 Posts	RShaw, you are getting great advice. I seem to be always working on my flinching. I get better, but then I can relapse. Mixing snap caps with live rounds is most revealing. Try it, you may be astonished as to how much you may be flinching. __________________ “God created war so that Americans would learn geography.” ― Mark Twain

09-14-2017, 09:30 AM	#14
RShaw User Join Date: Nov 2016 Location: Venlo, the Netherlands Posts: 350 Thanks: 160 Thanked 170 Times in 90 Posts	Yes Eugen, you're right!! Have to try the snap cap - live round mix- had not thought of that ) I am probably flinching more than I realize. BUT I do not understand why that makes a difference if the bullet is long gone when the recoil is felt. Flinching would then occur after the round has left the gun. Then the main factor is your sight picture when the firing pin strikes the primer- I would think....