Simson Commercial Rework

Dwight Gruber · 03-15-2004, 02:52 AM

Part 1

The Story of Simson & Co., Suhl, is a very slim chapter in the epic saga of the Luger. In all the literature--Walter, Kenyon, Datig, Gibson, Reese, Costanzo, Still--there are but a handful of pages concerning this manufacturer, and the essential information can be stated briefly.

After WWI the manufacture of military pistols was severly curtailed by the Treaty of Versailles. This did not affect rework and assembly from parts (Gibson, 1980)--thus DWM's continued operation--but new manufacture was heavily controlled. Erfurt's production equipment was acquired by the Jewish firm of Simson & Co. in 1920, and on April 1,1924 Simson was awarded the exclusive contract to provide P-08s to the 100,000-man German Reichswehr (Ginsberg, vide Still, 1993).

Initial production was rework and assembly. Simson-produced guns bearing Simson-marked toggles were introduced in 1925, with chamber dates from 1925-1928 (1927 and 1928 dated guns are disputed); Blank chamber with Simson-marked toggles; and Blank chamber with S marked toggles. Most collectors regard the S as the beginning of the ordinance code system; however, the codes were not distributed until 1934, and the Simson S appeared before that. There is evidence (Ginsberg, ibid) that the S was applied to "Aryanize" the firm's name, to hide its ethnicity from its increasingly anti-Jewish customer base.

Simson's production contract expired on March 31, 1934, and the company was nationalized and its constituent facilities given to other manufacturers in 1934 or early 1935. Simson's production output is estimated to have been 12,000 guns.

No arms manufacturer could survive in cash-strapped, inflation-ridden Weimar Germany with a decade-long output of 12,000 guns. Simson engaged in the rework and commercial sale of Imperial military Lugers to keep up cash flow, as did DWM. All manner of variations can be found: some with chamber dates, some without; some with Simson-marked toggles and some with their original toggle markings; some with a variety of the distinctive Eagle over 6 Simson inspectors' stamps. There are Police Lugers with a circle-surrounding-S on their left breechblocks: most collectors assert that these are Simson reworks, although the documentation to confirm this is not forthcoming.

The Luger presented here is an example of this rework program. It is a P-08 First-Issue Military retaining all its Imperial markings (which is what initially attracted me to the gun), with an interesting array of other markings and characteristics.

Dwight Gruber · 03-15-2004, 03:30 AM

Part 2

A closeup of the left receiver shows that this gun retains all its Imperial markings, including the barrel proof demonstrating that the gun has not been rebarrelled during rework. The side plate and takedown lever are both replacements, being numbered on their exposed surfaces in the military style (rather than hidden on the edges as would be appropriate for a First Issue). Note also the GERMANY export stamp on the frame rail. The sear bar (not pictured) is not relieved, but is stamped with the serial number on its face--an odd contradiction.

The barrel bottom and frame front bear their original markings as well, with the addition of an Eagle/6 on the barrel. There is no barrel gage, as this gun was manufactured before the 1910 marking instructions. The E/6 is haloed, indicating being stamped over the blue; the serial number and suffix are not haloed.

Simson number stamps have different characteristics from DWM numbers, this can be seen by comparing the 88 on the barrel and frame with the 88 on the takedown lever and sideplate in the previous picture. I regret that the double-numeral means that there is only the one example.

This P-08 has had a holdopen added. The exterior end of the pin can be seen, properly unblued, on the right side of the frame, along with its inspector's stamp. The much more unusual feature here is a Crown/N Commercial proof mark on the right side of the barrel -and- on the right side of the frame!

The grips are numbered to the gun, and have E/6 marks. It strikes me as unusual that the grip marks are the full Simson & Co. logo as found on the gun's toggle.

The magazine is serial numbered to the gun. The magazine base is stamped with both an E/6 and a Crown/N.

The breechblock is not original to this gun, the 88 clearly overstamps another number. It is interesting, though, that this breechblock is either a P-08 Commercial or another Military First Issue, as the number is in the same place. There is no power-proof stamp on the breechblock, only a hardness test dimple. One wonders where the part came from--another pistol? a parts bin? or...? This question will arise again before the presentation is concluded.

Dwight Gruber · 03-15-2004, 03:41 AM

Part 3

Perhaps the most unusual feature of this Luger is its sideplate. It is noticeably different even at a glance. The island is different--smaller, narrower, soft-edged; the characteristic vertical and horizontal milling marks on the face are absent; the edges and corners are sharp and square; the transition from the face to the bottom edge is a smooth curve, rather than a step. In short, it does not look like any sideplate I have ever seen. In the photo below it is flanked by a 1908 Commercial and a 1911 Erfurt sideplate, for comparison.

The finish is distinctively poor, browned and splotched. There is a bit of its original color visible in the bottom view, and the photograph portrays its bright, almost electric-blue quality pretty accurately.

I was almost ready to assume that this was some sort of bogus, poorly-made modern replacement, until I took it off and found an Eagle/6 neatly stamped into the back.

If anybody has any theories or comments regarding this sideplate I'm more than happy to hear them.

The rear toggle axle of this gun is serial-numbered. The regulation requiring axle-pin marking was issued in March of 1932; I conclude that this rework was performed after that date.

The final part of the mystery of this Luger--or perhaps the final mystery part--is the rear toggle link. As can be seen in the top photo, above, it's finish is turning brown on its upper flat--not on the rest of the piece however--and the mark stamped there is very strange looking. Under magnification it can be seen that some marking has been peened out, and an Eagle/6 has been stamped in its place.

It is impossible to tell what mark might have been there, the obliteration is quite thorough, but it is in the proper place for an Erfurt inspector's stamp. Now here is the other odd thing. Underneath this piece can be found the RW monogram.

This mark is associated with Mauser. It has been identified as the mark of Mauser Factory principal inspector Richard (?) Weiss (Walter, 1986); and Costanzo notes that it is found on the middle toggle link of 1938 through 1941 models. Why it would be found in this place on this gun, on this piece with these characteristics, is anybody's guess, and I'd certainly like to hear some. It certainly must either stretch the time or place of this rework past the date and confines of the Simson plant, or call into question the interpretation or application of the RW monogram.

It would be interesting to see other Simson reworks in order to identify commonalities. Any informed comments or guesses abut the puzzling aspects of this Luger should prove interesting.

--Dwight

John Sabato · 03-15-2004, 07:38 AM

Dwight, here is my theory on the sideplate. It was a common practice for retruning GI's to remove the sideplate and store it separately to make the gun safe around the family... I believe this sideplate was stored improperly, hence the difference in finish from the rest of the gun. It may have been stored in a non-oily rag that attracted moisture and cause the rust...

Theory 2, it may be a "blood in the holster" issue. IF the gun was captured with blood on it and stuffed in a holster and then tucked away so it wouldn't get stolen by a fellow soldier (my Dad had two of them taken while he was sleeping), it would less than a day or two for the sideplate to look like this. Blood will remove blue rather quickly. The blood traces (stripped to the white with some pitting) on the upper receiver and toggle of my byf41 cause me to have it reblued some 30 years ago when I bought it from the vet who brought it home.

Herb · 03-15-2004, 12:53 PM

Dwight, your commentary caused me to take a closer look at my Simson. While I can't comment on finish as it has been refinished with black chrome, I have the following comments: The side plate is the same style as your Simson, the bottom is of the rollover type and the island is narrow. It is stamped E/6 externally but not internally however the trigger lever has the E/6. The locking bolt extention is stamped with the number 6 but no eagle, as are various other parts. The grip panels bear the full serial number and the Simson E/6 stamp but not the logo. The rear axle pin is unnumbered and not proofed. The rear toggle is stamped with the number 6 underneath, no RW stamp. The breech block is stamped with the last 2 of the serial in the same place as yours, however there is a large eagle stamp near the top which is not on yours. The right side has triple Simson E/6 stamps, one larger than the other two. One strange thing I noticed is on the rear part of the flat on the frame just above the trigger pin is the capitol letter 'T'. It has the hold open but no externally visable pin, it is also stamped E/6 and has the last two of the serial #. The barrel has two E/6 stamps on the upper left side, one being larger than the other but no stamps on the right side. The chamber is unnumbered so I'm not sure exactly what year it was manufactured. The sear bar is relieved, E/6 and serial numbered. There are no stamps on the left reciever but there are 5 on the right side, 4 E/6 and one large eagle.

Ron Wood · 03-15-2004, 01:14 PM

Great photo essay, Dwight! Your photography and narrative are outstanding. This is my favorite type of posting that presents details and information that educate us all. Thank you very much.

Those grips are fantastic. Almost worth blowing up the picture and hanging it on a wall. I have never seen another example.

saxman · 03-15-2004, 01:26 PM

Wonderful posts like this are giving me new info on markings and where to look for them. I was reading another post last night where I learned that there is a mark on the front of the front sight. I thought I had looked my Luger over pretty well, but sure enough, there is a '1' there. Now I just learned here where the hold-open spring is and that it's not blued, plus more places to look for markings. Maybe I could pick up all this info from the many books on the subject, but I'm not going to buy hundreds of dollars' worth of books to analyze one Luger. All things come to he who waits!

John D. · 03-15-2004, 01:33 PM

Dwight,

Outstanding presentation!!!

On the Axel pin - do the digit formations match that any of the other small digit stamps found elsewhere? It may provide a lead as to when it was originally stamped?

Also - the inside of the grips - are fantastic!!

I wish I had a Simson to compare to yours and assist, but perhaps Herb or another can provide theirs??..

Dwight - outstanding essay.. I really enjoy these - and my guess is, I'm certainly not alone. My thanks for the education, photos and write-up!

policeluger · 03-15-2004, 04:24 PM

Dwight, again just outstanding, and the grip marks are most interesting, here if it help is what little info I can give you from my police blank chamber, Simson toggle. While the side plate is matching, the trigger lever is E/33 stamped and a rather lager case "4" on the inside leg of the side plate, outside is SN 460 and E/6, grips are SN 460 and E/6 and in addition to all correct proofs and SN, the trigger on the broad flat of the left side is stamped "25" rather large size. Thanks again.

kidvett · 03-15-2004, 08:06 PM

Dwight,

Outstanding presentation !! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> I too went in the safe to have a closer look at the Simson Blank Chamber P08. My odservations are similar to Herb. Here goes:

The sideplate has E/6 on the exterior, nothing on the interior but the trigger lever has E/6. Locking bolt has E/6 plus last 2 of the SN which are 60. Grip panels have the full SN and E/6 on the inside. Axle pin is unumbered & unproofed. Rear toggle has E/6 on the top and a small & lightly stamped E/6 underneath on the left side. No RW stamp. Breechblock has 60 and a Weimar eagle below on the left plus the E/6 on the right side. Hold Open has 60 and E/6, no outside pin. Sear bar relieved E/6 then 60. Receiver right side has E/6, E/81, E/6 and Weimar eagle. Left side shows pistol's SN 1060. Barrel left has RC Proof and E/6, Weimar eagle on right side. Underside of the barrel shows a 6 on top of 1060 then 8.82. Interesting is the front sight base that shows a small E/6 on it's left side. Frame has E/46 on top of SN. Trigger guard has 2 E/6 a large and a small one. Almost is not all small parts have the E/6 proof.

My observation is that grip panels are thicker than most P08s and have a coarse checkering pattern.

I find those Simsons P08 quite interesting as there are quite some variations & combinations of Proofmarks...Sadly enough, few survived

MARK

Russ · 03-15-2004, 09:02 PM

Dwight
Another Great and informitave article. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

Russ

Dwight Gruber · 03-15-2004, 09:30 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by John D.:
On the Axel pin - do the digit formations match that any of the other small digit stamps found elsewhere? It may provide a lead as to when it was originally stamped?<hr /></blockquote>John,

The numbers on the axle pin are the same style as the other Simson parts stamps--squatter, and thicker line width than the DWM stamps.

--Dwight

Dwight Gruber · 03-15-2004, 10:21 PM

Herb,

A good report. Got pix??

Also, you'll note in the picture of the breechblock that the top profile is lower than what is expected on a DWM, Erfurt, or Mauser--the top of the extractor sticks up far enough above it that the tops of the letters are visible. Does your Simson breechblock share these characteristics?

--Dwight

Dwight Gruber · 03-15-2004, 10:59 PM

Kidvette,

I've read this about Simson grips. Compared here is a Simson grip panel above an o-block Alphabet Commercial grip panel. Its a bit misleading because of the perspective difference, but at the top of the grips and along the length of the side panel, these Simson grips are two lines finer by count.

--Dwight

03-15-2004, 02:52 AM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Simson Commercial Rework Part 1 The Story of Simson & Co., Suhl, is a very slim chapter in the epic saga of the Luger. In all the literature--Walter, Kenyon, Datig, Gibson, Reese, Costanzo, Still--there are but a handful of pages concerning this manufacturer, and the essential information can be stated briefly. After WWI the manufacture of military pistols was severly curtailed by the Treaty of Versailles. This did not affect rework and assembly from parts (Gibson, 1980)--thus DWM's continued operation--but new manufacture was heavily controlled. Erfurt's production equipment was acquired by the Jewish firm of Simson & Co. in 1920, and on April 1,1924 Simson was awarded the exclusive contract to provide P-08s to the 100,000-man German Reichswehr (Ginsberg, vide Still, 1993). Initial production was rework and assembly. Simson-produced guns bearing Simson-marked toggles were introduced in 1925, with chamber dates from 1925-1928 (1927 and 1928 dated guns are disputed); Blank chamber with Simson-marked toggles; and Blank chamber with S marked toggles. Most collectors regard the S as the beginning of the ordinance code system; however, the codes were not distributed until 1934, and the Simson S appeared before that. There is evidence (Ginsberg, ibid) that the S was applied to "Aryanize" the firm's name, to hide its ethnicity from its increasingly anti-Jewish customer base. Simson's production contract expired on March 31, 1934, and the company was nationalized and its constituent facilities given to other manufacturers in 1934 or early 1935. Simson's production output is estimated to have been 12,000 guns. No arms manufacturer could survive in cash-strapped, inflation-ridden Weimar Germany with a decade-long output of 12,000 guns. Simson engaged in the rework and commercial sale of Imperial military Lugers to keep up cash flow, as did DWM. All manner of variations can be found: some with chamber dates, some without; some with Simson-marked toggles and some with their original toggle markings; some with a variety of the distinctive Eagle over 6 Simson inspectors' stamps. There are Police Lugers with a circle-surrounding-S on their left breechblocks: most collectors assert that these are Simson reworks, although the documentation to confirm this is not forthcoming. The Luger presented here is an example of this rework program. It is a P-08 First-Issue Military retaining all its Imperial markings (which is what initially attracted me to the gun), with an interesting array of other markings and characteristics.

03-15-2004, 07:38 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Dwight, here is my theory on the sideplate. It was a common practice for retruning GI's to remove the sideplate and store it separately to make the gun safe around the family... I believe this sideplate was stored improperly, hence the difference in finish from the rest of the gun. It may have been stored in a non-oily rag that attracted moisture and cause the rust... Theory 2, it may be a "blood in the holster" issue. IF the gun was captured with blood on it and stuffed in a holster and then tucked away so it wouldn't get stolen by a fellow soldier (my Dad had two of them taken while he was sleeping), it would less than a day or two for the sideplate to look like this. Blood will remove blue rather quickly. The blood traces (stripped to the white with some pitting) on the upper receiver and toggle of my byf41 cause me to have it reblued some 30 years ago when I bought it from the vet who brought it home. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-15-2004, 12:53 PM	#5
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Dwight, your commentary caused me to take a closer look at my Simson. While I can't comment on finish as it has been refinished with black chrome, I have the following comments: The side plate is the same style as your Simson, the bottom is of the rollover type and the island is narrow. It is stamped E/6 externally but not internally however the trigger lever has the E/6. The locking bolt extention is stamped with the number 6 but no eagle, as are various other parts. The grip panels bear the full serial number and the Simson E/6 stamp but not the logo. The rear axle pin is unnumbered and not proofed. The rear toggle is stamped with the number 6 underneath, no RW stamp. The breech block is stamped with the last 2 of the serial in the same place as yours, however there is a large eagle stamp near the top which is not on yours. The right side has triple Simson E/6 stamps, one larger than the other two. One strange thing I noticed is on the rear part of the flat on the frame just above the trigger pin is the capitol letter 'T'. It has the hold open but no externally visable pin, it is also stamped E/6 and has the last two of the serial #. The barrel has two E/6 stamps on the upper left side, one being larger than the other but no stamps on the right side. The chamber is unnumbered so I'm not sure exactly what year it was manufactured. The sear bar is relieved, E/6 and serial numbered. There are no stamps on the left reciever but there are 5 on the right side, 4 E/6 and one large eagle. __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

03-15-2004, 01:14 PM	#6
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,987 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,090 Times in 1,675 Posts	Great photo essay, Dwight! Your photography and narrative are outstanding. This is my favorite type of posting that presents details and information that educate us all. Thank you very much. Those grips are fantastic. Almost worth blowing up the picture and hanging it on a wall. I have never seen another example. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-15-2004, 01:26 PM	#7
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Wonderful posts like this are giving me new info on markings and where to look for them. I was reading another post last night where I learned that there is a mark on the front of the front sight. I thought I had looked my Luger over pretty well, but sure enough, there is a '1' there. Now I just learned here where the hold-open spring is and that it's not blued, plus more places to look for markings. Maybe I could pick up all this info from the many books on the subject, but I'm not going to buy hundreds of dollars' worth of books to analyze one Luger. All things come to he who waits! __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

03-15-2004, 03:30 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Part 2 A closeup of the left receiver shows that this gun retains all its Imperial markings, including the barrel proof demonstrating that the gun has not been rebarrelled during rework. The side plate and takedown lever are both replacements, being numbered on their exposed surfaces in the military style (rather than hidden on the edges as would be appropriate for a First Issue). Note also the GERMANY export stamp on the frame rail. The sear bar (not pictured) is not relieved, but is stamped with the serial number on its face--an odd contradiction. The barrel bottom and frame front bear their original markings as well, with the addition of an Eagle/6 on the barrel. There is no barrel gage, as this gun was manufactured before the 1910 marking instructions. The E/6 is haloed, indicating being stamped over the blue; the serial number and suffix are not haloed. Simson number stamps have different characteristics from DWM numbers, this can be seen by comparing the 88 on the barrel and frame with the 88 on the takedown lever and sideplate in the previous picture. I regret that the double-numeral means that there is only the one example. This P-08 has had a holdopen added. The exterior end of the pin can be seen, properly unblued, on the right side of the frame, along with its inspector's stamp. The much more unusual feature here is a Crown/N Commercial proof mark on the right side of the barrel -and- on the right side of the frame! The grips are numbered to the gun, and have E/6 marks. It strikes me as unusual that the grip marks are the full Simson & Co. logo as found on the gun's toggle. The magazine is serial numbered to the gun. The magazine base is stamped with both an E/6 and a Crown/N. The breechblock is not original to this gun, the 88 clearly overstamps another number. It is interesting, though, that this breechblock is either a P-08 Commercial or another Military First Issue, as the number is in the same place. There is no power-proof stamp on the breechblock, only a hardness test dimple. One wonders where the part came from--another pistol? a parts bin? or...? This question will arise again before the presentation is concluded.

03-15-2004, 03:41 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Part 3 Perhaps the most unusual feature of this Luger is its sideplate. It is noticeably different even at a glance. The island is different--smaller, narrower, soft-edged; the characteristic vertical and horizontal milling marks on the face are absent; the edges and corners are sharp and square; the transition from the face to the bottom edge is a smooth curve, rather than a step. In short, it does not look like any sideplate I have ever seen. In the photo below it is flanked by a 1908 Commercial and a 1911 Erfurt sideplate, for comparison. The finish is distinctively poor, browned and splotched. There is a bit of its original color visible in the bottom view, and the photograph portrays its bright, almost electric-blue quality pretty accurately. I was almost ready to assume that this was some sort of bogus, poorly-made modern replacement, until I took it off and found an Eagle/6 neatly stamped into the back. If anybody has any theories or comments regarding this sideplate I'm more than happy to hear them. The rear toggle axle of this gun is serial-numbered. The regulation requiring axle-pin marking was issued in March of 1932; I conclude that this rework was performed after that date. The final part of the mystery of this Luger--or perhaps the final mystery part--is the rear toggle link. As can be seen in the top photo, above, it's finish is turning brown on its upper flat--not on the rest of the piece however--and the mark stamped there is very strange looking. Under magnification it can be seen that some marking has been peened out, and an Eagle/6 has been stamped in its place. It is impossible to tell what mark might have been there, the obliteration is quite thorough, but it is in the proper place for an Erfurt inspector's stamp. Now here is the other odd thing. Underneath this piece can be found the RW monogram. This mark is associated with Mauser. It has been identified as the mark of Mauser Factory principal inspector Richard (?) Weiss (Walter, 1986); and Costanzo notes that it is found on the middle toggle link of 1938 through 1941 models. Why it would be found in this place on this gun, on this piece with these characteristics, is anybody's guess, and I'd certainly like to hear some. It certainly must either stretch the time or place of this rework past the date and confines of the Simson plant, or call into question the interpretation or application of the RW monogram. It would be interesting to see other Simson reworks in order to identify commonalities. Any informed comments or guesses abut the puzzling aspects of this Luger should prove interesting. --Dwight

03-15-2004, 01:33 PM	#8
John D. Administrator & Site Owner LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: A Little NE of Somewhere... Posts: 2,651 Thanks: 471 Thanked 513 Times in 127 Posts	Dwight, Outstanding presentation!!! On the Axel pin - do the digit formations match that any of the other small digit stamps found elsewhere? It may provide a lead as to when it was originally stamped? Also - the inside of the grips - are fantastic!! I wish I had a Simson to compare to yours and assist, but perhaps Herb or another can provide theirs??.. Dwight - outstanding essay.. I really enjoy these - and my guess is, I'm certainly not alone. My thanks for the education, photos and write-up!

03-15-2004, 04:24 PM	#9
policeluger RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ca. Posts: 2,141 Thanks: 8 Thanked 89 Times in 54 Posts	Dwight, again just outstanding, and the grip marks are most interesting, here if it help is what little info I can give you from my police blank chamber, Simson toggle. While the side plate is matching, the trigger lever is E/33 stamped and a rather lager case "4" on the inside leg of the side plate, outside is SN 460 and E/6, grips are SN 460 and E/6 and in addition to all correct proofs and SN, the trigger on the broad flat of the left side is stamped "25" rather large size. Thanks again.

03-15-2004, 08:06 PM	#10
kidvett User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 584 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts	Dwight, Outstanding presentation !! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> I too went in the safe to have a closer look at the Simson Blank Chamber P08. My odservations are similar to Herb. Here goes: The sideplate has E/6 on the exterior, nothing on the interior but the trigger lever has E/6. Locking bolt has E/6 plus last 2 of the SN which are 60. Grip panels have the full SN and E/6 on the inside. Axle pin is unumbered & unproofed. Rear toggle has E/6 on the top and a small & lightly stamped E/6 underneath on the left side. No RW stamp. Breechblock has 60 and a Weimar eagle below on the left plus the E/6 on the right side. Hold Open has 60 and E/6, no outside pin. Sear bar relieved E/6 then 60. Receiver right side has E/6, E/81, E/6 and Weimar eagle. Left side shows pistol's SN 1060. Barrel left has RC Proof and E/6, Weimar eagle on right side. Underside of the barrel shows a 6 on top of 1060 then 8.82. Interesting is the front sight base that shows a small E/6 on it's left side. Frame has E/46 on top of SN. Trigger guard has 2 E/6 a large and a small one. Almost is not all small parts have the E/6 proof. My observation is that grip panels are thicker than most P08s and have a coarse checkering pattern. I find those Simsons P08 quite interesting as there are quite some variations & combinations of Proofmarks...Sadly enough, few survived MARK

03-15-2004, 09:02 PM	#11
Russ User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Reading, PA. Posts: 628 Thanks: 2 Thanked 38 Times in 10 Posts	Dwight Another Great and informitave article. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Russ __________________ Livin the dream!!!!!!!!!!!

03-15-2004, 09:30 PM	#12
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by John D.: <strong>On the Axel pin - do the digit formations match that any of the other small digit stamps found elsewhere? It may provide a lead as to when it was originally stamped?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">John, The numbers on the axle pin are the same style as the other Simson parts stamps--squatter, and thicker line width than the DWM stamps. --Dwight

03-15-2004, 10:21 PM	#13
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Herb, A good report. Got pix?? Also, you'll note in the picture of the breechblock that the top profile is lower than what is expected on a DWM, Erfurt, or Mauser--the top of the extractor sticks up far enough above it that the tops of the letters are visible. Does your Simson breechblock share these characteristics? --Dwight

03-15-2004, 10:59 PM	#14
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Kidvette, I've read this about Simson grips. Compared here is a Simson grip panel above an o-block Alphabet Commercial grip panel. Its a bit misleading because of the perspective difference, but at the top of the grips and along the length of the side panel, these Simson grips are two lines finer by count. --Dwight