1917 Erfurt Arty...

Pete Ebbink · 10-04-2004, 07:50 PM

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=23806720

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976513399.htm

With matching numbers... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> except for the barrel...

Fritzer · 10-04-2004, 08:27 PM

How can these auctions be occuring at the same time? Are gunsamerica and GunBroker linked in some way?

Have your searches turned up many double listings before Pete?

I guess the first $1400 takes it?

Doesn't seem right?

Regards,
Fritz.

Big Norm · 10-05-2004, 01:27 AM

Fritz,
I ain't right. Its a shooter that someones trying to get $1400 for. Pretty expensive shooter at that price. The barrel not matching is the first strong clue. I would like to take a look at that rear toggle and gently rub my fingers on it. I'll bet that I'll feel the filing off of the old fixed sight from an Erfurt army Luger. I'd also like to look at the serial number on barrels tang sight. I'll bet that its number matches the last two numbers on the barrel and not the frame.
Big Norm

John Sabato · 10-05-2004, 10:26 AM

If this guy is as he states (a cattle rancher in Montana and not a dealer/collector), and is not real familiar with internet auctions, he may not realize that he is violating the terms of the auction houses by having it listed in two places at once...

Most of the auction sites will allow you to withdraw an auction if you have sold the item before any bids are placed... but I am pretty sure that they also prohibit dual listing...

RockinWR · 10-05-2004, 11:35 PM

Gentlemen,
* Got to agree w/ Big Norm..one very "on point" analysis.
* The first fundamental clue to note is: "Erfurt did not make the Artillery Luger configuration in 1917". Everything after that still means this is a shooter.
* As nice as this example appears & noting the W.C. Fields factor in InterNet Gun Auctions lately, $1400 may be understated. Time will tell.
Respectfully,
Bob

Big Norm · 10-06-2004, 02:03 AM

Bob,
your right about there not being a 1917 Erfurt artillery. But every so often someone comes up with a 1913 or a 1915 Erfurt artillery and tries to pass it off as a rare production Erfurt artillery. The same thing happens in the navy Lugers when someone tries to sell a model 1914 with a 1918 chamber date. It just ain't so.

My earlier analysis was more directed at Fritz and other new people to check their artilleries. Always check that rear toggle to make sure that an army fixed sight wasn't filed off. Always check the serial numbers on the frame and on the barrel to make sure that they are the same and that the size of the numbers are the same. Check the artilleries sight to make sure that the two digit serial numbers are the right ones. It can be costly to pay full value for an artillery only to find out later that it has been rebarreled. You should also check the bore of any Luger to make sure that it hasn't been reamed out and a tube inserted so that the bore could be re-rifled.
Big Norm

Sgt Art · 10-15-2004, 04:45 PM

As far as the listing on two auctions is concerned, they don't seem to care. I once sent a complaint regarding that very thing and was told that they couldn't control what a seller does on other auctions. In other words, "we're hoping it sells here and either way, we still collect a listing fee."

Vlim · 10-16-2004, 09:43 AM

For completeness sake:

Faking erfurt LP08-versions is easy, as from november 1916 onwards, both the LP08 as the P08 Erfurt-made versions had the chamber-cutout for the LP08 sight on the receiver.

10-04-2004, 07:50 PM	#1
Pete Ebbink User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The USA Posts: 5,919 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts	1917 Erfurt Arty... http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/Vie...?Item=23806720 http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976513399.htm With matching numbers... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> except for the barrel...

10-05-2004, 10:26 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	If this guy is as he states (a cattle rancher in Montana and not a dealer/collector), and is not real familiar with internet auctions, he may not realize that he is violating the terms of the auction houses by having it listed in two places at once... Most of the auction sites will allow you to withdraw an auction if you have sold the item before any bids are placed... but I am pretty sure that they also prohibit dual listing... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

10-04-2004, 08:27 PM	#2
Fritzer User Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 134 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	How can these auctions be occuring at the same time? Are gunsamerica and GunBroker linked in some way? Have your searches turned up many double listings before Pete? I guess the first $1400 takes it? Doesn't seem right? Regards, Fritz.

10-05-2004, 01:27 AM	#3
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Fritz, I ain't right. Its a shooter that someones trying to get $1400 for. Pretty expensive shooter at that price. The barrel not matching is the first strong clue. I would like to take a look at that rear toggle and gently rub my fingers on it. I'll bet that I'll feel the filing off of the old fixed sight from an Erfurt army Luger. I'd also like to look at the serial number on barrels tang sight. I'll bet that its number matches the last two numbers on the barrel and not the frame. Big Norm

10-05-2004, 11:35 PM	#5
RockinWR User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: D/FW, Tx Posts: 278 Thanks: 109 Thanked 30 Times in 15 Posts	Gentlemen, * Got to agree w/ Big Norm..one very "on point" analysis. * The first fundamental clue to note is: "Erfurt did not make the Artillery Luger configuration in 1917". Everything after that still means this is a shooter. * As nice as this example appears & noting the W.C. Fields factor in InterNet Gun Auctions lately, $1400 may be understated. Time will tell. Respectfully, Bob

10-06-2004, 02:03 AM	#6
Big Norm RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: SE Michigan Posts: 1,864 Thanks: 1 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts	Bob, your right about there not being a 1917 Erfurt artillery. But every so often someone comes up with a 1913 or a 1915 Erfurt artillery and tries to pass it off as a rare production Erfurt artillery. The same thing happens in the navy Lugers when someone tries to sell a model 1914 with a 1918 chamber date. It just ain't so. My earlier analysis was more directed at Fritz and other new people to check their artilleries. Always check that rear toggle to make sure that an army fixed sight wasn't filed off. Always check the serial numbers on the frame and on the barrel to make sure that they are the same and that the size of the numbers are the same. Check the artilleries sight to make sure that the two digit serial numbers are the right ones. It can be costly to pay full value for an artillery only to find out later that it has been rebarreled. You should also check the bore of any Luger to make sure that it hasn't been reamed out and a tube inserted so that the bore could be re-rifled. Big Norm

10-15-2004, 04:45 PM	#7
Sgt Art User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SC Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	As far as the listing on two auctions is concerned, they don't seem to care. I once sent a complaint regarding that very thing and was told that they couldn't control what a seller does on other auctions. In other words, "we're hoping it sells here and either way, we still collect a listing fee."

10-16-2004, 09:43 AM	#8
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,041 Thanks: 1,021 Thanked 3,910 Times in 1,192 Posts	For completeness sake: Faking erfurt LP08-versions is easy, as from november 1916 onwards, both the LP08 as the P08 Erfurt-made versions had the chamber-cutout for the LP08 sight on the receiver.