ID

Have an offer to buy a pistol with the markings S/42, which I have found on this site but I am unable to find the identification for the markings on the right side that say,

"La Plata 9mm GER. Number is 8157 with what looks like a tiny "81" but it is probably a small gothic letter.

Any help?

Pistol is in good condition, no magazine, black grips, any rough guess on value?

Thanks, andy.

[Thor]

Andy, does the Chamber have a date or letter code on top of it? Is the S/42 marking on the front toggle or on the barrel somewhere? Also find the out the letter suffix under the serial on the front of the frame above the trigger guard viewed from the front, that would help. The La Plata sounds like an import marking, is it on the right frame rail? Germany 9mm sounds like an export marking?

Need to know if the numbered parts all match (are numbered 57), I assume the grips are black plastic, any markings on them, are the checkered? Lots of questions, but each helps identify the gun. Thanks! Thor

[Thor]

It appears is an importers marking. Miltex, Inc., located in La Plata, MD

Hello, Thor.


Thanks for the response.

Your answers go a long way to helping me form the history of the pistol.

Haven`t seen the pistol, the description I have is by questioning the seller over the email. I will be able to pass your questions along to the seller for more information.

The "LaPlata" markings are on the right frame rail, is the "LaPlata" stamp a period marking?

The numbers are matching, ie. "57". As far as the location of the "S/42" that is unclear and the suffix letter was described by the owner as looking like a small number "81".

I can understand this description as I am still unable to decide whether the suffix letter on the pistol I own now is a small case "g" or a "q"!

As far as a chamber date I believe he mentioned 1936.

Any thoughts on the rough value? The owner was hinting around in the 500$ range.

Thanks again, andy

[Marvin]

Andrew,


From the information you have provided, it does sound like the pistol is one of the recently import marked pistols which came from the old Soviet Union. If we assume that the parts are all matching, the pistol is in mechanically good condition and NO magazine, the value will be approx. $400-500 as a rough guess. It is probably closer to the $400 since an original type magazine will cost you about $75-100. A repro magazine will be about $30-40. The black grips may also hurt the value some if they are not original Luger grips.


Condition is everything in a value and someone else may be able to help on this too, but I feel any Luger in good mechinacal condition should be worth $400. If the seller is asking more than $500, it is definetly to high with no magazine. Hope this helps a little.


Marvin

[Thor]

Andrew, I agree with MArvin on the price, this is a definetly an import marked Luger. The La Plata marking is a recent importers marking that was put there when the gun was brought into the country and it hurts the price more than it helps it. the 81 might be a part of the barrel gauge (if that is where it is located) Only the serial number will have a subscript and the is a small case letter in cursive German script. Most barrel gauges will be like 8,83 which stands for 8.83 mm which is the land diameter of that particular pistol. The 1936 and S/42 toggle marking certainly go together but you need the suffix letter of the serial to see if that particular serialized gun falls in the documented production range. With that import marking it is defiently a shooter Luger by my thinking and hence the $400-$600 range. Thor

Thor and Marvin,


Thanks much for the feedback. Now that you mention it the owner did say it was from Russia so you guys hit that nail right on the head.

Also, thanks for the rough price estimate, guess we are all on the same page with that one too.

Thoughts, any chance a proffesional restorer could remove the "LaPlata" marking during a complete rebluing and restoration?

andy

[Lonnie Zimmerman]

Thor can do ANYTHING you want with your gun!!


Lonnie

[Marvin]

Andrew,


Lonnie is correct! Thor can refinish the Luger back to the exact condition when it left the factory. Take a look at his website from the Links & Resources section of the Forum. He has "before & after" photos of his work. I have 2 of his reworks from the import marked pistols and they are like new now. Get in tough with him and discuss your pistol; if you do have work done, you will be very pleased.


Marvin

[Kyrie]

Hi Andrew,


The importerâ??s marking is a part of the identifying marks of your Luger, and the ATF would view their removal in the same way they would view the removal of the serial number (e.g. a criminal offense). Iâ??m afraid you are stuck with the importer marking :-(


Best regards,


Kyrie

Moderator - Cruffler_Forum on Yahoo Groups

"The flame free C&R Forum."

[Marvin]

Hello Kyrie,


I have wondered about the Importers Markings and if they can be leaglly removed. Is there anything in the ATF regulations that state about the import stamps? I may have missed this when reading the regs and you know how tough it is to find an answer in them. I appreciate your help on this and it is good info to know.


Marvin

[Kyrie]

Hi Marvin,


It appears to be an ATF ruling rather than an ATF regulation, based on ATFâ??s interpretation of CFR Title 27, Sections 178.34 and 178.92(a)(1).


I learned about this back when I was building custom rifles based mostly on Mauser actions. The subject came up with my need to scale off the action (and incidentally remove all the markings, including the original serial number) before doing other work on the action. Iâ??d then apply my own manufacturerâ??s marking and serial number.


ATFâ??s view on this was the process was lawful if I logged out the action as originally marked as â??destroyedâ?� and immediately logged in the action as manufactured with my serial number and manufacturer stamp. I was however, warned that removal of the original manufacturerâ??s marking, serial number, and any marking identifying the importer would be unlawful under any other circumstances.


This ruling was based on ATFâ??s need to be able to run a trace on a firearm recovered at a crime scene. For domestically manufactured firearms this trace process starts at the manufacturer and proceeds through the distributor to the retailer, and thence to the individual buyer on the Form 4473. But for imported firearms, and especially milsurp C&R firearms, this trace process begins at the importer. Removal of the importerâ??s marking makes the firearm untraceable, just as if the serial number had been removed. And so ATF treats the removal of the importerâ??s marking in the same way as the removal of the serial number.


Hope this helps!


Best regards,


Kyrie

Moderator - Cruffler_Forum on Yahoo Groups

"The flame free C&R Forum."

[BILL]

Import marks are not always 'required by law' to be on a pistol. If the pistol is import marked on the barrel and a replacement barrel is added the original can be discarded (or sold on eBay for a small fortune). There is no requirement to try to stamp or engrave the original serial or import marks on the barrel. The law is written in legalese, of course, and for me to try to interpret it (or anyone who is not an attorney for that matter) would be ridiculous. The intent of the law is to make the gun traceable. Many pistols have the serial only on the frame. Import marks, to my knowledge, have never been anything that I have had to record during a legal transaction. Having been involved in gun tracebacks I have also never been asked to provide anything more than serial, caliber, barrel length, finish, manufacturer and wether it was an auto or revolver. If you are not comfortable removing an import mark, fine. But it is kind of like those tags on the overstuffed pillows and mattresses. I remove them, but I won't bail you out if you get caught by the pillow police and tossed in the crossbar motel because it clearly says 'Do not remove this tag under penalty of law'. Common sense applies (except for beauracracies and testosterone).

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


Respectfully, import marks are required on all imported firearms and have been since 1968 (see CFR178). And no, you (as non-importer) are not required to record import marks, as the ATF bound book record keeping requirements permits you to record the manufacturer *or* the importer.


Regarding your involvement in traces, by your description what you were involved in were fishing expeditions. When ATF does a firearm trace they identify the firearm they are tracing by supplying the type (rifle, shotgun, or handgun) make, model, serial number, and cartridge for which the firearm is chambered, and ask the dealer to whom he transferred the firearm. They already know everything about the firearmâ??s characteristics - they have it in their possession. What they want from the dealer is who, not what. Yes - I have cooperated with ATF on firearm traces.


And no, this has nothing to do with mattress tags or a fictitious pillow police - I can assure you that the ATF enforcement branch is very real.


That said, and returning to the topic, yes, the intent of the importerâ??s marking is to make the firearm traceable, which is why it is required by Federal statute. Removal of the importerâ??s marking makes traces impossible, and ATF has ruled that willful removal of the importerâ??s mark is a prosecutable offense. You may, if you wish, contend this with ATF - Iâ??m just the messenger.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[BILL]

Hi Kyrie, brief and on topic..you are replacing a 4" barrel on an import marked Luger. The barrel is the only import mark. What 'really' happens?

[Marvin]

Kyrie,


Thanks for the information. I have read the other postings and still don;t understand. This has been a very good thread and discussion. It is just a shame the regulations cannot be understood by the average citizen. There are so many different wordings in several places in the regs, it is difficult to understand exactly what you can do. I feel they are written this way to confuse the public and that the courts and lawyers can make a final determination.


marvin

[Kyrie]

Hi Bill,


According to ATF the fellow who removes the import mark (in this case by removing the barrel) has committed a criminal act and is subject to prosecution.


Speaking for myself I donâ??t like this ruling and think it has the potential to jam up some innocent people. OTOH I can understand why ATF ruled the way they did, as removing the import mark has the potential to prevent ATF from being able to get a murderer off the street.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[BILL]

There is a 'spirit' of the law and a 'letter' of the law. The barrel replacement is a judgement call best made by an NRA appointed attorney who specializes in these matters. Our opinions are just as valid as our interpretations of the federal statutes. Nothing posted here should be construed as a legal absolute (unless one is an attorney and chooses to donate some 'pro bono' time). I would caution all who frequent the forum that there are laws in this land that are sometimes easily understood and some that are not. Do not post opinions as legal facts. By the same token, don't go doing crazy stuff. (Stay tuned for a legal definition of 'crazy stuff').