1900 British Luger Photo...

[Pete Ebbink]

Thought this Early Luger section needed a luger photo post to start things off...

This "drop dead gorgeous" 1900 British photo is from the Imperial Arms web site...

Gota go wipe off the drool from my keyboard, now... <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" />

[Edward Tinker]

Very pretty, those look like Hugh did those grips [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

[Ron Wood]

That is an excellent early Luger Pete. As a matter of fact, it pre-dates 1900. Since you identified it as British, it almost has to be one of the two sent to England for testing and is actually an 1899 pre-production. I believe it is serial number 26, and still resides in the pattern room in England. I am not sure what happened to the second one but I think it might be in a collection here in the States now.

[wterrell]

Here is an 1898 Transitional Serial #5:

[wterrell]

And here's an 1899 Transitional. The frame has started to be lightened.

[Pete Ebbink]

It's great seeing more and more Forum members are getting the hang of the photo thing on our new Forum...

Wonderful Transitional photos, Wes !!!

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[wterrell]

Yeah, I had a problem with the name of my pic. It was originally 1898TransitionalSerial#5.jpg. It loaded onto the server, but would not display. So I figured that either the name was too many characters or the "#" was blocking the interpretation of it. I eliminated both options and then it was visible.
Too much of the vine this evening! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

[Ron Wood]

That second 1899 transitional is serial number 6. According to accounts, it started out identical to number 5, then was taken back from the Swiss and modified as it exists now. It belongs (or at least it used to and may still) to a Swiss private collector and is as beautiful as the picture shows.

[BILL]

The first British Luger just happens to be my favorite photo of any Luger I have ever seen. That is just what a rare collector Luger should look like. The color of the grips is outstanding and the matching mag makes for a beautiful transitional test piece. Thanks Pete for posting it, thanks to Imperial Arms for hosting the picture and thanks Ron for a little more detail on it. That is one Luger that would be worth making big payments every month to own (and throwing in my pet goat as collateral). Those transitional pictures really can give a person 'Luger fever', if you know what I mean.

[wterrell]

<img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />
Absolutely! I left off the identification because I suppose Ernest and Julio (Gallo) were prompting me to show what a total lack of consideration for others that I could have. And.....I guess I showed 'em.

Regards,
wes

[Johnny Peppers]

Ron,
Serial number 23 was a British test piece, but is not a complete pistol, only parts. Serial number 25 and 26 were British test pieces. Serial number 25 and 23 were apparently identical, but serial number 26 is GL proofed, has a hand engraved Swiss Cross on the chamber and resides in the Pattern Room Collection.

[Ron Wood]

Thanks Johnny. I was working off the top of my head (lots of room there now that the hair is getting thin!) so I'm glad I got the 26 and location correct. I am almost positive that 25 is in the States now.

[Imperial Arms]

I am glad that the forum members are becoming more enthusiastic about using images to make there point clearer as well as to start off new subjects of great interest. I noticed that some of my images are being used from my website Imperial Arms which is acceptable to me.

I would like to kindly make two corrections which were wrongly stated about the 1900 British Test Luger #26 referring from detailed photos I took of this Luger in the Pattern Room, Nottingham in 1996. Firstly, this Luger is NOT 'GL' hallmarked as mentioned by Johnny Peppers and, Ron, it is not exactly pre-1900 because this Luger was delivered to the British around April-May 1901 for testing. It does have some pre-production characteristics such as the Borchardt boarderline grips; the double recoil spring retainer; the one millimeter longer firing pin; the unrelieved magazine bottom; and the engraved Swiss cross on the chamber. The toggle link is standard round like a 1900 model and the sear has probably been replaced as a result of its straw color.

I thought this information might he helpful to some of the Luger Forum members.

Albert

[Johnny Peppers]

I will be the first to admit that I have not personally seen the Luger in question, but was using information that had previously been reported on the pre 1900 pistols.
I have personally seen one Luger that previously did not have the GL proof that now proudly wears one. The GL strike has a life of it's own.

[Thor]

Those are some of the most stunningly beautiful Luger pics I have EVER seen! WOWOWOWO <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

[Johnny Peppers]

Imperial Arms,
The information on No.26 is found in Fred Datig's series "The Swiss Variations" Monograph IV. He does not picture No.26, but does picture No.33 which he indicates was in the Ralph Shattuck collection at the time of publication and shows the GL mark on the rear of the toggle. He goes on to to compare No.19 which is in Switzerland, and No.26 which is in England. He details the hand fitting, engraved Swiss Cross on the chamber, no logo, and ends it with "these rare "GL" marked specimens".
We must accept the information provided us until
information to the contrary is authenticated. No.19 is also indicated in another source as having the GL marked toggle, and if you have any information to the contrary on this pistol, it too would be appreciated.

[Pete Ebbink]

Hello Albert from Imperial Arms :

When ever I use a photo that I did not take, I always try to give the proper photo credit...

And you are correct, I was trying to use a really nice photo of a beautiful gun to spark interest and discussions...

Regards,

Pete...

[Ron Wood]

Albert
Thank you for allowing the use of your photos. I think we all envy the fact that you had the opportunity to handle and photograph these fabulous weapons!
Based on your description of Serial #26, I am convinced that even though it may have been delivered to England in 1901, it is indeed an 1899 pre-production example. Six of the pre-production Swiss test pieces were delivered to England for their tests. That explains the Swiss Cross in Sunburst on #26 even though it was subject to the English trial. All of the other features you described have been attributed to the 1899 configuration, to include the strawed sear bar. I do not know if you also photographed the top of #26, but if you did, you might examine it for one other feature. The rear toggle link has a T-shaped configuration. The "top" of the T is narrower on the pre-production pieces than the 1900 toggle. I do not have a pre-production example to photograph (darn! [img]frown.gif[/img] ) but I have "doctored" a 1900 toggle to show the difference. I hope I am succesful in posting it.

[Ron Wood]

OK. It seems that I got past that first photo hurdle, so let's try another to show a feature of the very early 1899 pre-production pieces. On the earliest examples, the front toggle link joint was square where it hinged on the rear toggle link, as opposed to the rounded configuration found on all later Lugers. Some of these early pieces were later modified to incorporate the radiused link, but they still retained the "short" T configuration. The "doctored" photo below shows this square link.

[Imperial Arms]

Gentlemen,

I must say that I am enjoying this subject and, Ron, I appreciate your 'artistic' talents in explaining some details - well done!

Calion, I shall soon post an image of the top view of the British Test Luger serial #26 which does NOT have a 'GL' on the rear of the toggle. You must understand that Fred Datig made a mistake 20-30 years ago when he bundled together the various pre-production Lugers together and stated that they had 'GL' hallmarks. Furthermore, Luger serial #5 does NOT have a 'GL', most likely because the rear toggle link was replaced during the 1898 tests (it carries magazine serial #10), whereas serial #6 has a 'GL' hallmark (as well as on the magazine) which surprises me. I shall withhold my reasons for the latter to avoid any controversy.

For your information, serial #19 (with a 'GL') is a 1899 pre-production model with the short non-reinforced rear toggle (see Ron's images) and it is probably the only correct pre-production model known to exist - unfortunately, it was taken from the Thun Museum and it cannot be found! Somewhere in my files, I have a photocopy of Swiss model 1899 serial #20(?) which is documented in the Swiss Pistol Commission journals and the safety area is polished like a 1900 model!

Albert at Imperial Arms