Original DWM Truncated Cone Bullet

[Sieger]

Greetings to all of my new Luger friends!!!

Has anyone recreated the original DWM Military style truncated cone bullet specifically designed for the Luger?

Does anyone have one original DWM 480C round they could sell me? I'd like to use it as a pattern for a custom mold?

Has anyone had good experience with any of the commercially available truncated cone bullets (FMJ or lead)?

Thanks

Bob

[unspellable]

I tried a truncated cone lead bullet in a 9 mm DWM. This bullet did not have the original profile, it was a tad longer in the cone and had a smaller point than the original. It tended to hang up as the upper chamber edge would bite into the lead and stop it from chambering.

[Sieger]

Hi Unspellable:

O.A.L. is probably your problem, as I have no problems with the RCBS 125 gr. lead or the Hornady 124 gr. FMJ. For the RCBS, the standard 1.15 inch length seems to be just right. The Hornady needs to be a tad shorter because of its wider nose.

Thanks for your response!!

Bob

[Navy]

Winchester manufactured and sold these back around 1910 or so. I have an Orange label box of Win 9mm truncated cone ammo in my Luger ammo collection The cover of the box depicts the truncated cone cartridge.
Tom A.

[Doubs]

I've fired many hundreds of rounds through my Lugers using the Lyman TC bullet. Works perfectly and is accurate. I even designed and had made a custom mold that makes essentially the same bullet in .30 caliber for my .30 Lugers. It works just fine too.

[Sieger]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Tom A:
<strong>Winchester manufactured and sold these back around 1910 or so. I have an Orange label box of Win 9mm truncated cone ammo in my Luger ammo collection The cover of the box depicts the truncated cone cartridge.
Tom A.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Thanks Tom:

I have a box of the Winchester rounds made, I believe, in the 1920s. The bullet is of a longer cone design than the original DWM bullet. The "new" RCBS bullet looks a lot like the Winchester round.

Thanks again!

Bob

[Sieger]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Doubs:
<strong>I've fired many hundreds of rounds through my Lugers using the Lyman TC bullet. Works perfectly and is accurate. I even designed and had made a custom mold that makes essentially the same bullet in .30 caliber for my .30 Lugers. It works just fine too.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Hi Doubs:

Yes, according to Wilson, the truncated cone design will function more reliability in the Luger than round nose bullets. I have found this to be true in my 26 years of Luger shooting. I'm glad that you took the time to design a truncated cone design for your .30, as DWM had such a design in early days.

What is your OAL on your Lyman loads?

Thanks again!!

Bob

[unspellable]

Sieger,

I had the 9 mm truncated cone lead bullet loads put up some time ago, before I really got into the what's, why's, and how's of loading for the Luger. They didn't work well so set them aside and haven't paid any attention to them since. I'll drag a few out and see what the OAL is. However, I think the bullet profile is more likely to be the culprit than the OAL. As I say, the profile does not match the original DWM load. They did feed OK in a Ruger P89.

I have acquired a revolver chambered for the 9 mm Parabellum that I can burn non-feeding rounds in. Now if only I had a revolver chambered for the 7.65 mm Parabellum to use up all that underloaded factrory ammo. I acquired a Ruger P89 in 7.65 mm Parabellum with a reduced recoil spring but it will not reliably feed Winchester of Fiocchi ammo. Did OK with a box of Peters, although ejection was not very enthusiastic.

[wterrell]

Here are a couple of boxes of 7.65 ammo that I have. One Winchester, one Remington. Please define truncated so that our understandings are sinc.

The third box pictured I could be persuaded to sell.

(p.s. I believe that everyone else assumed that you were referring to 9mm.)

[Sieger]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wes:
[QB]Here are a couple of boxes of 7.65 ammo that I have. One Winchester, one Remington. Please define truncated so that our understandings are sinc.

The third box pictured I could be persuaded to sell.

(p.s. I believe that everyone else assumed that you were referring to 9mm.)

Hi:

Thanks a million for your reply!

Yes, I am referring to the original 9MM DWM truncated cone bullet.

A truncated cone bullet is a bullet with the frontal area approximating a cone, but with a flat point instead of a sharp one.

The German engineers found that these would tip upon contact, thus making a much more efficient and deadly projectile.

Supposedly, the Allies complained during WWI and, so the legend goes, the Germans changed over to the round nose bullet.

Thanks again!

Bob

[Doubs]

Bob, I just checked my available reloads and I don't have any of the Lyman cast bullets loaded at the moment. However, adding the case length and nose length of the Lyman bullet together gives an OAL of approximately 1.100".

I do have a few loaded cartridges that have the Lee TC cast bullet in them and they measure 1.064" OAL. The Lee bullet design has a slightly shorter nose and a larger meplat or nose surface area.

[Sieger]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by unspellable:
<strong>Sieger,

I had the 9 mm truncated cone lead bullet loads put up some time ago, before I really got into the what's, why's, and how's of loading for the Luger. They didn't work well so set them aside and haven't paid any attention to them since. I'll drag a few out and see what the OAL is. However, I think the bullet profile is more likely to be the culprit than the OAL. As I say, the profile does not match the original DWM load. They did feed OK in a Ruger P89.

I have acquired a revolver chambered for the 9 mm Parabellum that I can burn non-feeding rounds in. Now if only I had a revolver chambered for the 7.65 mm Parabellum to use up all that underloaded factrory ammo. I acquired a Ruger P89 in 7.65 mm Parabellum with a reduced recoil spring but it will not reliably feed Winchester of Fiocchi ammo. Did OK with a box of Peters, although ejection was not very enthusiastic.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Unspellable:

Some years ago, I owned a nice commercial Luger, in 7.65, made in the 1920s. It really was a beautiful pistol, with exceptionally high quality of fit and finish.

I, too, experience the underloaded commercial ammo problem.

Do you know just why they underload the 7.65, as this is practically the only pistol ever manufactured to use it?!?

Bob

[Sieger]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Doubs:
<strong>Bob, I just checked my available reloads and I don't have any of the Lyman cast bullets loaded at the moment. However, adding the case length and nose length of the Lyman bullet together gives an OAL of approximately 1.100".

I do have a few loaded cartridges that have the Lee TC cast bullet in them and they measure 1.064" OAL. The Lee bullet design has a slightly shorter nose and a larger meplat or nose surface area.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Dear Doubs:

I've been looking at those Lee T/Cs for some time now. The one I like is the tumble lube one, the one without the grease groove. Is this the one you are referring to? This one has a more pointy nose and smaller diameter flat point, somewhat like the original DWM bullet.

The other Lee T/C looks a great deal like the Hornady 124 gr. T/C FMJ, but with a grease groove.

I have had excellent luck with the Hornady 124 gr. T/C FMJ, with both flawless function and excellent accuracy! Some years ago, I developed one load that shot so well that I hardly could believe my eyes when I checked the target (seven touching, with one called flier, at 25 yards).

Thanks again

Bob

[Doubs]

Bob, the Lee TC mold I have is the single grease groove and not the tumble lube design. I hesitate to use tumble lube on a bullet I load for the Luger as the nose of the Luger cartridge rides on the forward groove of the magazine as it moves upward and I'm concerned that the lube might not allow the bullet to slide as easily as the unlubed bullet. It may work fine but I haven't tried them for that reason.

[unspellable]

Bob,

Very good question. This is one of the points of my research into the history and ballistics of the 7.65 mm Parabellum cartridge. I do not by any means have all the answers as of yet, but in the meantime here is some food for thought.

For starters there are far more non-Parabellum pistols chambered for this cartridge than you might think. The earliest such I have come across is at least one C96 Mauser Broomhandle so chambered. Prior to WWI the Italian Glisenti was so chambered. More recently, the Walther P38, the P35 Browning Hi-Power, the Radom, the Colt, and the Ruger P89 have been so chambered.

Prior to WWII the 7.65 mm actually outsold the 9 mm in the US. In those days the Luger was a working gun, not a collector's piece and was quite popular as an outdoorsman's gun for its accuracy and flat trajectory.

I do not have definite proof as of yet, but I believe the US 7.65 commercial loads were hotter than today and were reduced shortly after WWII. Probably due to the influx of war souvenirs and surplus of what was, at least in the eyes of the US ammo makers, questionable quality. Chief offender here was probably the Glisenti, never known for its strength. Around the time of WWI the Italians chambered the Glisenti for the 9 mm Glisenti cartridge. This cartridge is close enough to the 9 mm Parabellum for either cartridge to chamber in either pistol. The Glisenti 9 mm load was mush lighter than the 9 mm Parabellum. During the post WWII period the US makers reduced the load in the 9 mm Parabellum, probably out of fear of the Glisenti pistol.
Since that time the 9 mm has become very popular and the commercial loads have crept back up to their original levels.

The 7.65 was not so popular in the US after WWII and remained in the background with little attention. The post war light loads remained to this day.

I have contacted Winchester about this and found they were not very cooperative. I contacted SAAMI and found they were not very knowledgeable. They could not explain the origin of the SAAMI specs for the7.65 Parabellum. The SDAAMI specs allow an undersized bullet. More importantly they call for a maximum average pressure of 28000 cup. (Or maybe 28400, I am quoting from memory.) This is simply not enough pressure to easily get the muzzle velocity needed to make the Luger function reliably. A Luger with an unusually smooth action or a reduced recoil spring may work reliably with this ammo. I have been learning that cutting the original recoil spring is NOT the proper way to get a reduced recoil spring.

The original DWM loads ran higher pressures and produced higher muzzle velocities. There is nothing about the 7.65 Luger to prevent it from running the same pressures as the 9 mm, and in fact, in the original pre WWI carbine the pressures were higher than the 9 mm. Thus a proper maximum average pressure for the 7.65 really should be about 32000. The proof load ran about 40000 cup for both calibers in the pistol, higher in the original pre WWI carbine which had a max average working pressure on the order of 40000, same as the proof load for the pistol. The carbine load produced a velocity in excess of 1400 fps at 50 feet from the muzzle.
Winchester claims 1220 fps from a 4.5 inch barrel. In actual fact their load will not achieve this velocity form a six inch barrel.

Later I will have a great deal more to say on this subject. The project has been delayed somewhat by an unusually long honeydew list this year.

[Hugh]

<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" /> Winchester makes a 147 gr TCMC 9mm cart, I got mine at Wally World, the OAL is 1.118". I have handloads with a 124 gr copper clad lead TC bullet that I got from Midway, loaded OAL is 1.085". I also have handloads with a 124 gr cast lead TC bullet, OAL is 1.165". All of these feed in my shooting Lugers with no problems. <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />

[DIVIL]

Seiger,
I don't know if this helps or not but Fiocchi makes factory loaded 123gr. Truncated Cone 9mm ammo. I have yet to own a luger so I cannot stipulate how well it might work in one but I have shot them through my 9mm BHP with good results. The ammo is a little on the warm side (not a +P )and seems to group well. Cheaper than dirt sells them for less than $6 a box. When looking at my German Handguns book by Ian Hogg the profile of the original German DWM truncated cone cartridge and the Fiocchi round do look very similar.
Hope this helps,
DIVIL

[Sieger]

Dear Divil:

Yes, I also discoverd this ammo on the Cheaper Than Dirt" site and did extensive testing of it while I was on vacation in Florida last month!

The bullet they are using in this ammo LOOKS EXACTLY LIKE THE ORIGINAL DWM TRUNCATED CONE BULLET!!!! <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" title="" src="graemlins/bigok.gif" />

This ammo shoots extremely well (even to point of aim and without jamming)in both my 1917 DWM and my 1941 Mauser!!!

It is advertised at 1,250fps, but I didn't have the time to actually test it. <img border="0" alt="[nono]" title="" src="graemlins/nono.gif" />

For right now, this looks like great stuff and I would encourage our members to buy some and check it out for yourselfs.

Sieger

[wterrell]

I have a hard time with words so I have looked up the definition for the 100th time.

Main Entry: trun�·cat�·ed
Pronunciation: -"kA-t&d
Function: adjective
Date: circa 1704
1 : having the apex replaced by a plane section and especially by one parallel to the base.