Undated Simson Luger?

JohnF · 01-07-2003, 05:35 PM

This is an undated Luger that I picked up recently, which I think is a Simson. I'm a bit puzzled because it is marked S on the toggle and that usually means Mauser doesn't it? The proofs seem to me to be Simson though and include the droop eagle 6 mark. The S/N is 1868 and all the numbers match. Overall it's not in great condition as there is some corrosion. Am I right in believing it to be a Simson and would anyone know when it was made?
Here are some pictures:
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/WholePistol.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/LeftFrame.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RightFrame.JPG
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Top.JPG

Herb · 01-07-2003, 07:20 PM

John, just a quickie, it is a Simpson, based upon the right frame markings.
According to Harry Jones in his book Luger Variations and also Kenyon in Lugers at Random it is more than likely a 1934 production model. Simpson dropped their familiar Simpson/Suhl marking toward the end of their mfg career in favor of just the gothic S. Noted items of interest--there should be eagle/6 inspectors proofs
on the side plate, extractor, and both rear toggles, I don't see them in your photos. Additionally the 'S' stamping is too far forward, it should be toward the rear of the toggle just in front of the serial # last two. Additionally nearly all parts will have the inspectors stamp, even the grip screws! If it is authentic, it is a hard to find variation and carries a premium price over the 'regular' Simpsons. I posted to this topic earlier but when I came back to check, the post was gone??? Perhaps some of the other guys have some more details for you, nice find!

JohnF · 01-08-2003, 04:52 AM

Thank you very much Herb. There is no proof at all on the sideplate apart from the 2 digit S/N and no proofs on the grip screws or extractor. All small parts do have the correct 2 digit S/N though.
The eagle 6 does appear in a number of places as follows:
The take down lever
Twice on the right frame
The top of the barrel
The underside of the safety - this is not a clear stamp though
The right side of the front link of the toggle action - my technical vicabulary is not good!!
The top of the middle part of the toggle action.
The top of the rear part of the toggle action.
The right side of the trigger.
The front of the trigger guard.
The rear of the magazine release button - as visible on the right side of the pistol.
The bottom of the shoulder stock attachment.
The sliding bar that moves up when the safety is on.
The small angle cut part to the rear of the sideplate - there is a gap between this part and the bar mentioned above but it's cut at the same angle - apologies again for lack of proper terms.
That's all the eagle 6 markings that I can find. The only other thing that I would say is that the S marking looks to be in it's original place and there is no sign of this part having been altered.
Once again, many thanks for your help.
All the best,
John

JohnF · 01-08-2003, 05:01 AM

Just a quicky - looking closely at the sideplate, the numbers look like they may have been altered so it is very possible that this is not the original one - especially as it has no proof mark. The negative photo below shows this more clearly:
http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Sideplatenegative.JPG

Lugerdoc · 01-08-2003, 08:42 AM

John F, Your 1868 "S" code Simson should have an "a" suffix to the S/n on the front of the frame to be correct. A no suffix variation this early would have the standand :"Simson & Co./Suhl" toggle markings. Tom H.

JohnF · 01-08-2003, 09:27 AM

I've just checked and there is no A suffix on the front frame. Only the serial number and the eagle 6 proof. I read somewhere that there was quite a bit of variation in Simson markings but, to be frank, I really don't know. Apart from the sideplate everything else looks fine to me.

JohnF · 01-08-2003, 09:59 AM

Hmmm, I tried the quick reply but it doesn't seem to work for me. Anyway, there is definitely no A suffix on the front frame. Apart from the sideplate all the numbers match though so I'm a bit puzzled. Was there a Series C of Simson production between 1932 and 1933 - until Weimar Lugers is reprinted I haven't got a reference for this period.

JohnF · 01-08-2003, 02:57 PM

I really need new glasses!! There is a letter a just below the serial number on the front of the frame. There is also an X in a circle just below that. Does that mean that it's been reworked by the East Germans?

Lugerdoc · 01-09-2003, 07:46 AM

John F, I'm glad that you finally found your "A". The circled "X" is definately an EG rework marking, so some replacement parts may be expected. Either way, a difficult variation to find. Tom H.

ken d · 01-09-2003, 05:22 PM

JohnF:

Your view of the toggle shows a cut out on the top edge of the side plate for the sear safety but the flange above the sear does not show a hole for the rivet that secures the safety. Without Simson acceptance marks I agree the side plate is replacement. The Simson suffix letter should be an "a", not the normal lower case German script letter for an a.
Weimar Lugers, page 36, states "Serial numbers of the "S" code variation were interspersed in the Blank Chamber production and their production overlapped." This may indicate "S" codes may or may not have a suffix.

Ken D

JohnF · 01-11-2003, 10:27 AM

Hi Ken,
Thanks for the info. The suffix is indeed an "a" in normal letters and not in script.

Dieter08 · 01-14-2003, 10:22 AM

First i thought when i saw the pics was : It may be an east german rework. Because the small parts are not straw and that kind of blueing. But: I'd like to have it! Very rare. Should he rework it again and straw the parts? Or should he leave it as a variation of lugers???

01-07-2003, 05:35 PM	#1
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Undated Simson Luger? This is an undated Luger that I picked up recently, which I think is a Simson. I'm a bit puzzled because it is marked S on the toggle and that usually means Mauser doesn't it? The proofs seem to me to be Simson though and include the droop eagle 6 mark. The S/N is 1868 and all the numbers match. Overall it's not in great condition as there is some corrosion. Am I right in believing it to be a Simson and would anyone know when it was made? Here are some pictures: http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/WholePistol.JPG http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/LeftFrame.JPG http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/RightFrame.JPG http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Top.JPG

01-07-2003, 07:20 PM	#2
Herb User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Utah, in the land of the Sleeping Rainbow Posts: 1,457 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	John, just a quickie, it is a Simpson, based upon the right frame markings. According to Harry Jones in his book Luger Variations and also Kenyon in Lugers at Random it is more than likely a 1934 production model. Simpson dropped their familiar Simpson/Suhl marking toward the end of their mfg career in favor of just the gothic S. Noted items of interest--there should be eagle/6 inspectors proofs on the side plate, extractor, and both rear toggles, I don't see them in your photos. Additionally the 'S' stamping is too far forward, it should be toward the rear of the toggle just in front of the serial # last two. Additionally nearly all parts will have the inspectors stamp, even the grip screws! If it is authentic, it is a hard to find variation and carries a premium price over the 'regular' Simpsons. I posted to this topic earlier but when I came back to check, the post was gone??? Perhaps some of the other guys have some more details for you, nice find! __________________ Utah, where gun control means a steady trigger pull

01-08-2003, 08:42 AM	#5
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	John F, Your 1868 "S" code Simson should have an "a" suffix to the S/n on the front of the frame to be correct. A no suffix variation this early would have the standand :"Simson & Co./Suhl" toggle markings. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-09-2003, 07:46 AM	#9
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	John F, I'm glad that you finally found your "A". The circled "X" is definately an EG rework marking, so some replacement parts may be expected. Either way, a difficult variation to find. Tom H. __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-08-2003, 04:52 AM	#3
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Thank you very much Herb. There is no proof at all on the sideplate apart from the 2 digit S/N and no proofs on the grip screws or extractor. All small parts do have the correct 2 digit S/N though. The eagle 6 does appear in a number of places as follows: The take down lever Twice on the right frame The top of the barrel The underside of the safety - this is not a clear stamp though The right side of the front link of the toggle action - my technical vicabulary is not good!! The top of the middle part of the toggle action. The top of the rear part of the toggle action. The right side of the trigger. The front of the trigger guard. The rear of the magazine release button - as visible on the right side of the pistol. The bottom of the shoulder stock attachment. The sliding bar that moves up when the safety is on. The small angle cut part to the rear of the sideplate - there is a gap between this part and the bar mentioned above but it's cut at the same angle - apologies again for lack of proper terms. That's all the eagle 6 markings that I can find. The only other thing that I would say is that the S marking looks to be in it's original place and there is no sign of this part having been altered. Once again, many thanks for your help. All the best, John

01-08-2003, 05:01 AM	#4
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Just a quicky - looking closely at the sideplate, the numbers look like they may have been altered so it is very possible that this is not the original one - especially as it has no proof mark. The negative photo below shows this more clearly: http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Sideplatenegative.JPG

01-08-2003, 09:27 AM	#6
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I've just checked and there is no A suffix on the front frame. Only the serial number and the eagle 6 proof. I read somewhere that there was quite a bit of variation in Simson markings but, to be frank, I really don't know. Apart from the sideplate everything else looks fine to me.

01-08-2003, 09:59 AM	#7
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hmmm, I tried the quick reply but it doesn't seem to work for me. Anyway, there is definitely no A suffix on the front frame. Apart from the sideplate all the numbers match though so I'm a bit puzzled. Was there a Series C of Simson production between 1932 and 1933 - until Weimar Lugers is reprinted I haven't got a reference for this period.

01-08-2003, 02:57 PM	#8
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I really need new glasses!! There is a letter a just below the serial number on the front of the frame. There is also an X in a circle just below that. Does that mean that it's been reworked by the East Germans?

01-09-2003, 05:22 PM	#10
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	JohnF: Your view of the toggle shows a cut out on the top edge of the side plate for the sear safety but the flange above the sear does not show a hole for the rivet that secures the safety. Without Simson acceptance marks I agree the side plate is replacement. The Simson suffix letter should be an "a", not the normal lower case German script letter for an a. Weimar Lugers, page 36, states "Serial numbers of the "S" code variation were interspersed in the Blank Chamber production and their production overlapped." This may indicate "S" codes may or may not have a suffix. Ken D

01-11-2003, 10:27 AM	#11
JohnF User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: UK Posts: 167 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Hi Ken, Thanks for the info. The suffix is indeed an "a" in normal letters and not in script.

01-14-2003, 10:22 AM	#12
Dieter08 User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 56 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	First i thought when i saw the pics was : It may be an east german rework. Because the small parts are not straw and that kind of blueing. But: I'd like to have it! Very rare. Should he rework it again and straw the parts? Or should he leave it as a variation of lugers???