New Acquisition, 1908 Commercial

Dwight Gruber · 04-29-2003, 01:25 AM

Subject Luger is a 1908 Commercial. This was the design which superceded the 1906: it has no grip safety, no holdopen, and no stock lug. It was accepted by the Army as the eponymous P-08. Serial numbers of the commercial model started with 39142 and ended with 71371; through serial# 69000 the numbers were interspersed with the serial numbers of 1906-model production. Estimated production for this model is 12,000 pieces (Still, "Imperial Lugers", p.11).

The pistol pictured is not a pristine sample. It is in good condition, but it has been altered and re-blued. The reblue is not very recent, the mag-light test reveals the beginning of "browning" under some areas, but the inside of the frame is blued, as is the recoil spring connecting link. At least the gun was stripped rather than buffed, all the edges and milling marks are sharp. Close observation will reveal unusual characteristics which I will present in more detail.

The right side of the gun shows the pin which has been placed during the addition of a holdopen, it can be seen just above and behind the trigger pin.

1908 Commercial production presents the transition from the early BUG proof marks to the Nitro proof Crown/N. This pistol displays the early marks. Crown/B and Crown/U are found on the breechblock and left receiver, Crown/G is added on the barrel. B is the overload test proof specified by the proof law of 1892; it also denotes a completely finished pistol. U represents the word Untersuchung (inspected). G is found only on the barrel, and represents the word Gezogen (rifled) (from Costanzo, p. 196). 118,35 is a bore diameter measurement in accordance with English proof laws of 1894. It is equivalent to 9mm, but measured as the number of lead balls of the stamped diameter which weigh a pound (ibid, p. 191). This gun is not export marked. The witness mark appears to be two strikes, but aligned.

This pistol has an unusual alteration. In addition to the commercial edge serial number stamping of the side plate, the number has been stamped military-style on its face. The locking lever appears to have been replaced, and is stamped on its face with the same dies as the side plate.

When early P-08s are arsenal-reworked to add a holdopen, a proof is stamped next to it to certify the work; this Luger has no holdopen proof.

I have wondered about these alterations. I have heard knowledgable speculation that this pistol could have gone to war as the private purchase of an officer or NCO, and been altered as per regulations during a depot repair. I find the numbering die unusual, and wonder why there is no added-holdopen proof. Others thoughts on these subjects will prove interesting. I would particularly like to see exterior pictures of other Lugers' added holdopens, to compare the way the machining is implemented.

--Dwight

jamese · 04-29-2003, 09:13 AM

Dwight,
This is my 1911 with added holdopen and no proof on stamp on the side of the frame.

the pin was machined very nicely to match the rail, but under the rail some missed a punch or something.

The holdopen itself is stamped with the last two of ser # and crown proof

http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Rightsidehold.jpg
http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/HOLDOPEN2.jpg

Hope this is some help to you

Jim

Dwight Gruber · 04-29-2003, 11:50 PM

Jim,

Thanks much for the photos. Your modification (exterior) looks like the one which Costanzo illustrates, a hole drilled through the frame without the relief in the frame rail which this pistol exhibits.

Still more questions than answers.

--Dwight

Barry Briscoe · 05-03-2003, 12:35 PM

Dwight,
This is a photo of the added holdopen latch on an early 1908 DWM First Issue Military Luger SN 17xx.The holdopen latch bears the last two digits of the SN.Looks like they did good job on this one.

Barry

Dwight Gruber · 05-03-2003, 01:07 PM

Barry,

Thanks for that. Looking at the holdopen job on my 1908, I begin to wonder, were holdopens ever added privately, that is, by commercial or civilian gunsmiths rather than military arsenal?

--Dwight

04-29-2003, 01:25 AM	#1
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	New Acquisition, 1908 Commercial Subject Luger is a 1908 Commercial. This was the design which superceded the 1906: it has no grip safety, no holdopen, and no stock lug. It was accepted by the Army as the eponymous P-08. Serial numbers of the commercial model started with 39142 and ended with 71371; through serial# 69000 the numbers were interspersed with the serial numbers of 1906-model production. Estimated production for this model is 12,000 pieces (Still, "Imperial Lugers", p.11). The pistol pictured is not a pristine sample. It is in good condition, but it has been altered and re-blued. The reblue is not very recent, the mag-light test reveals the beginning of "browning" under some areas, but the inside of the frame is blued, as is the recoil spring connecting link. At least the gun was stripped rather than buffed, all the edges and milling marks are sharp. Close observation will reveal unusual characteristics which I will present in more detail. The right side of the gun shows the pin which has been placed during the addition of a holdopen, it can be seen just above and behind the trigger pin. 1908 Commercial production presents the transition from the early BUG proof marks to the Nitro proof Crown/N. This pistol displays the early marks. Crown/B and Crown/U are found on the breechblock and left receiver, Crown/G is added on the barrel. B is the overload test proof specified by the proof law of 1892; it also denotes a completely finished pistol. U represents the word Untersuchung (inspected). G is found only on the barrel, and represents the word Gezogen (rifled) (from Costanzo, p. 196). 118,35 is a bore diameter measurement in accordance with English proof laws of 1894. It is equivalent to 9mm, but measured as the number of lead balls of the stamped diameter which weigh a pound (ibid, p. 191). This gun is not export marked. The witness mark appears to be two strikes, but aligned. This pistol has an unusual alteration. In addition to the commercial edge serial number stamping of the side plate, the number has been stamped military-style on its face. The locking lever appears to have been replaced, and is stamped on its face with the same dies as the side plate. When early P-08s are arsenal-reworked to add a holdopen, a proof is stamped next to it to certify the work; this Luger has no holdopen proof. I have wondered about these alterations. I have heard knowledgable speculation that this pistol could have gone to war as the private purchase of an officer or NCO, and been altered as per regulations during a depot repair. I find the numbering die unusual, and wonder why there is no added-holdopen proof. Others thoughts on these subjects will prove interesting. I would particularly like to see exterior pictures of other Lugers' added holdopens, to compare the way the machining is implemented. --Dwight

04-29-2003, 09:13 AM	#2
jamese User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: South Florida Posts: 789 Thanks: 0 Thanked 84 Times in 34 Posts	Dwight, This is my 1911 with added holdopen and no proof on stamp on the side of the frame. the pin was machined very nicely to match the rail, but under the rail some missed a punch or something. The holdopen itself is stamped with the last two of ser # and crown proof http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/Rightsidehold.jpg http://boards.rennlist.com/lfupload/HOLDOPEN2.jpg Hope this is some help to you Jim __________________ The "truth" is a matter of Perception

04-29-2003, 11:50 PM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Jim, Thanks much for the photos. Your modification (exterior) looks like the one which Costanzo illustrates, a hole drilled through the frame without the relief in the frame rail which this pistol exhibits. Still more questions than answers. --Dwight

05-03-2003, 12:35 PM	#4
Barry Briscoe User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 29 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Dwight, This is a photo of the added holdopen latch on an early 1908 DWM First Issue Military Luger SN 17xx.The holdopen latch bears the last two digits of the SN.Looks like they did good job on this one. Barry

05-03-2003, 01:07 PM	#5
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,890 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,282 Times in 424 Posts	Barry, Thanks for that. Looking at the holdopen job on my 1908, I begin to wonder, were holdopens ever added privately, that is, by commercial or civilian gunsmiths rather than military arsenal? --Dwight