Unusual magazine

[G.T.]

Hi Peter! Thats a tough one...but I have noticed one distinct feature on the Mauser rolled sheetmetal tubes that seems to be unique to Mauser only, regardless of the plating or blue... and that is: the die that was used to make the stops for the follower at the top of the mag. shell seems to be, IN MOST INSTANCES, an exact half circle... in other words the die was a round punch ground down to half it's dia.... most WWI mag. shells exhibit eliptical or flattened shapes in this area! Not a hard and fast fact, but something to take into consideration, to be sure! till...later...G.T. <img src="graemlins/jumper.gif" border="0" alt="[jumper]" />

[MauserLugers]

Hello Peter,
You mention that your 1918 DWM was in a safe for 31 years and was a vet bring back I presume from WWII, so what does this prove? If this is correct, you have a WWI Luger that was apparently brought back after WWII by a vet, which has absolutely no bearing on how the Luger was issued in 1918, and only explains the condition it was in from 1945 until the present. In my opinion this clearly indicates that the tube was changed sometime between 1936 and 1945. If you want to justify it then you can play the "what if game" and say it was a field repair or and arsenal repair, but don't say it was an original issue.

[MauserLugers]

Also, a 1918 DWM with a blued tube would be the same as finding a K-date or G-date Mauser Luger with a matching blued tube magazine. They just were not issued that way and if you do find one the tubes have been exchanged. Again, the question is when and by whom! The best you can hope for is to say it is a period repair?

[Edward Tinker]

So, this thread is actually very interesting and I am glad so much information has been discussed in a reasonable and informed response from all involved. Especially since it is one of those areas that can lead to one of those discussions of ---

1. Facts, give me article, book etc., substansial fact areas before I believe what you are telling me ...

2. I see what I have and believe in what I have in front of me and / or have seen with my own eyes and it must be true because I am an informed and intelligent person ...

And after I have read all of the above, I am led to the conclusion that more than likely the magazine has been reblued, yet there is, as Bill stated, a possibility of a period or long ago mixing of parts from an armorer or arsenal, so that would explain why several instances of this has occured and turned up.

I am also of the opionion that since 1945, that many guns have gone through a few hands and yet that is 57 years ago. 57 years is a fairly long period of time to remember or have had something done to a gun I picked up even before it was picked up by a vet.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[lugercollector]

Hey Guys...here are some more photos of this mystery mag.....the gun is a 1917 DWM not 1918....as per GT's post I put a 36 Mauser mag alongside.....as can be seen the tubes ends are different...my other ww1 mags exhibit the same characteristics as this one...also the interior does not seem to be blued??...I am of the opinion that the mag is original to the gun...however, I have no way of knowing for sure...I would go with 90% certain from my perspective....interesting discussion!!!!! Peter..

[Heinz]

Strange things happen with magazines but they are part of the history of the piece. My 1915 Police has a Schmeisser extruded stainless magazine with a police style wooden bottom, serial numbered to the gun in the police fashion, no letter suffix, a "2" stamp to show it was the spare and a *K on the mag. However the pistol appears never to have had a magazine safety, only the sear safety. Is it original to the police conversion? I hope so but will never really know. It also has both the original imperial eagle barrel proof and army Nazi "eagle" Middle period on the other side of the barrel.

Note this wood bottomed stainless mag is contrary to Walter's statement. I think Walter made a general statement about magazines not claiming it to be based on research. Walter also proposed that 1906 altered navy's were all altered in the Keil dockyard. The wide range in methods reported for this modification would suggest that is not probable. Like all research Walter's book is very good on what he reports as observed and verified fact but subject to errors on the guesses.

[policeluger]

A Weimar police without the mag safety is found, and I have several, but like you stated it will have a sear safety. An HS with a wood bottom, I don't think this is original. It is the first I have heard of. I realy wish I had a solid feeling on blue tubes one way or the other, as for now I will stick with John Walter. I think I remember Krusewerks (sp) stating on his web page that he had 10,000 mags and was going to list them, yes 10,000 or 1,000s what ever it was, anyway someone with that much in stock could shed some light on this??.

[Frank]

Howard, Krause has been saying he was going to publish a list of his magazine numbers for years. Please don't hold your breath!!! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

[policeluger]

[img]frown.gif[/img] phooooo I was turning blue....pun intended...its all fun.

[drbuster]

Dear Policeluger. Interesting that you mentioned Mike Krause. He does indeed have over 1000 luger clips! He also says that he is too busy making .45 lugers to classify them I have offered to help but am also too busy. In any event, Mike insists that blued tubes (rust blued) did indeed exist with wooden bottoms in WW1 manufactured DWM lugers and that he has "several". He gave me permission to post this and is open to comments.

[policeluger]

Well, in view of this last thread, what does the rest of the forum think. I have always felt that blue on wood was correct, simply because I have always seen them. As I stated not in great numbers, but still seen them. I guess we will believe what we want, reguardless of what other may offer to differ. Please, for those who are of a different opinion as stated above, does this change any thoughts?. To Herb, thanks a lot for the info.

[John Sabato]

Admin Note: 3 duplicate posts deleted - JS)

[Heinz]

Policeluger

Note I did not say HS I said Schmeiser. It is stamped on the spine running across the spine not vertically up the spine. The remains of
Sch----er show and the head and tail of the broad arrow below. If Haenel was above it may have worn off, lots of use on this one. So I do not know if it was Haenel Schmeiser or just Schmeiser The magazine tube may well have been replaced but the bottom has been noted as authetic police by several observers and most think it goes with the mag. It could just as likely be a mating of a stainess extruded mag with an existing wood bottom of a bent up magazine.

However, you should note how ready you are to say this mag is wrong (which it may or may not be) when you are so convinced the blued mag is right. I would say it is problematic whether either are correct unless further matching numbered guns with a definitive history turn up. Waffenamp USA turns out lots of mags and my immeadiate reaction to matching numbers is a question.

How does Krause know the blued mags are imperial period when he has only the magazine and not the pistol?? I am not being a wiseacre here, I am curious

[Edward Tinker]

[quote] Note I did not say HS I said Schmeiser. It is stamped on the spine running across the spine not vertically up the spine. The remains of
Sch----er show and the head and tail of the broad arrow below. If Haenel...<hr></blockquote>

Now Heinz, this is interesting, I don't know much about Haenel Schmeiser magazines. So, my questions is, did they say Haenel at times and then at other times Haenel Schmeiser?

Is there a breakdown anywhere, I haven't noticed one in my boks, but may very well have overlooked it?

[policeluger]

Heinz,
I realy want too work on this one so lets try and see if we can work it out. First Mike gave his thoughts as that the mags are Imperial, perhaps not a published authority, but I feel he has a bit of Luger experance. I know that he's been around for years in the gun business, now this does not make him flawless, but worth listening to. I know that that two of my mags predate Waffenamp USA, and none show an Erfurt proof which may help fit things in place time wise. Now as too your mag...do you have Costanzo's WOL proof marks...if so we can talk proof numbers/pages ect. So please, try and give me your proof mark referenced to Costanzo and we can go from there...I do not believe I have ever seen a Hanel or a HS proofed mag with a wood bottom. could this have been an Waffenamp UAS worked mag...this is all in fun and in the spirit of Luger fellowship.

[MauserLugers]

Hi,
You guys are mixing apples and oranges again and you SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

Military and Police are totally different and you can not say what rules for one rules for the other.

In this case, the DWM Military Luger with the blued magazine tube is a rework. The base is probably original but the tube has been changed. Again, this is because they did not make any blued tubes until 1936. The time frame is incorrect. You can not have an issued gun in 1917 or 1918 with a 1936 tube -- it is impossible -- these are reworks.

The Police magazine could very well be correct as these Lugers were reworked and the H.S. tubes could very well have been used on a wooden base. Lots of wooden bases were restamped and put on different tubes. The time frame would support something like this as you are using an old base on a new magazine tube. Nothing wrong with this one. The police magazines are an odd bunch with just about anything possible, such as bases and tubes and numbers. Not the same regulations as what the Army magazines were required.

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

[policeluger]

MauserLuger, I believe you have hit the nail on the head and I will try and work with the info you have provided. To say police..."are an odd bunch" is very correct. But still are you sure that, or have you seen, other HS mags on wood bottoms and were not all HS mags extruded. I do not believe Costanzo references to this, then again it is getting to be perhaps outdated? thanks for your time and trouble. Still I am troubled, just going to wip this one more time, an extruded mag body and a wood base

[Heinz]

MauserLuger: as usual you are right. I did not mean to drift so far and I do know better. Imperial military is very standardized, Weimar police is poverty driven. Will start a new thread :-)

Happy thanksgiving to all