Haenel Magazine 16/20 round - Page 2

DonVoigt · 04-25-2016, 08:42 AM

GT,
all points, some good, some not, some better!

-Remember, these are the guys who made lugers from blocks of steel! A magazine would have been a piece of cake- I'm surprised they didn't just mill them from a monoblock!

-The guy that described the process, was actually, really "on the line"- I believe him, no reason to lie, no reason to make it up. He was the son of the plant or line manager or some such. He claims to have worked on the magazine line - not exactly a claim to fame!

-You really need to read the whole story, there are some 8-10 pages..

-Later on it describes the welding process which involved inserting a ceramic block for stabilization during welding of the seam.

-Post war the French(IIRC) used a yet slightly different method with an overlapping of the back and welding.

'Nuff said on that did happen or not.

Moving on to now, I thought you were pretty happy with Mec-gar mags.

They are not crimped on the sides, but where is the seam?

Have you (or anyone) communicated with Mec-gar about their process?

Would be cool to document what they decided was an "efficient, modern" process.

kurusu · 04-25-2016, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

GT,
all points, some good, some not, some better!

-Remember, these are the guys who made lugers from blocks of steel! A magazine would have been a piece of cake- I'm surprised they didn't just mill them from a monoblock!

-The guy that described the process, was actually, really "on the line"- I believe him, no reason to lie, no reason to make it up. He was the son of the plant or line manager or some such. He claims to have worked on the magazine line - not exactly a claim to fame!

-You really need to read the whole story, there are some 8-10 pages..

-Later on it describes the welding process which involved inserting a ceramic block for stabilization during welding of the seam.

-Post war the French(IIRC) used a yet slightly different method with an overlapping of the back and welding.

'Nuff said on that did happen or not.

Moving on to now, I thought you were pretty happy with Mec-gar mags.

They are not crimped on the sides, but where is the seam?

Have you (or anyone) communicated with Mec-gar about their process?

Would be cool to document what they decided was an "efficient, modern" process.

Weld, Don,

I'll tell you this, even tough Mec-Gar does good P.08 magazines they positively suck at 1911 ones.

sheepherder · 04-25-2016, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

Moving on to now, I thought you were pretty happy with Mec-gar mags.

They are not crimped on the sides, but where is the seam?

The seam is on the back. Like the P08 mags you illustrated, they are formed around a mandrel, welded on the back seam, and the weld ground flat. If you remove or push down the follower, you can see the unground inner seam. The outer seam is ground lengthwise and left unpolished.

G.T. · 04-25-2016, 10:15 AM

Hi to all! And good morning Don! ....

.. Yes I read the whole description of the gentlemen's recollection on the fxo fabrication... Annnd I agree with Don in that whether or not the machining was done as I surmise, or as the gentleman describes is a moot point as the results are same... Obviously, they got it done! But, some last minute points to let those who have some production thoughts to maybe see it in a little different light....
First off, I wasn't there... But, as to anything this far removed, there are always connect the dots and fill in the blanks moments when in all reality, we just don't know?....
So, we have the same issues we face in collecting, we have the item, and we have the story.... All I have is hands on experience in efforts to reproduce? Or repair?.... As a result, there are processes tried, and efforts made to replicate items using what ever skills and tools we can dream up ...
In my efforts to fabricate magazines and tools there are some constants that I have learned the hard way, and one of them is, a precision magazine shell is NOT ever made, formed, or welded over a mandrel???? ....

.... because, you can't remove it! Even with a hydraulic press and it deforms over it's length before it moves!!!!! In fact you need a large tolerance to even have a remote chance at a slip fit, .015"+ would be pretty close... (I know they could have had split mandrels and multi part forming dies, but I'd bet that was overkill for an item like this?) I would go so far as to bet that the magazines never ever saw a mandrel past the forming die that gave them there initial shape... There is reliefs, spring back, and lubrications to deal with and none of it compliments the next operation.... But, that being said, I do find the welding on the ceramic a pretty neat concept, and we have done the same with carbon and brass if the piece is large enough to wick away the heat! I don't believe special filler rod was used, I think it was just butt welded and ground down, the discoloration is from the welding process its self... But again, that's just me... If I ever do try to make a magazine, I'm not going the route the book describes, as I've already stumbled along that path!...

BTW, Don, the new, (and old) MEC-GAR magazines are welded just as were the fxo magazines.. only now, probably computer MIG welded in a controlled atmosphere ... perfect inside, ground smooth outside! Best to all, til...lat'r....GT.....

04-25-2016, 08:42 AM	#21
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	GT, all points, some good, some not, some better! -Remember, these are the guys who made lugers from blocks of steel! A magazine would have been a piece of cake- I'm surprised they didn't just mill them from a monoblock! -The guy that described the process, was actually, really "on the line"- I believe him, no reason to lie, no reason to make it up. He was the son of the plant or line manager or some such. He claims to have worked on the magazine line - not exactly a claim to fame! -You really need to read the whole story, there are some 8-10 pages.. -Later on it describes the welding process which involved inserting a ceramic block for stabilization during welding of the seam. -Post war the French(IIRC) used a yet slightly different method with an overlapping of the back and welding. 'Nuff said on that did happen or not. Moving on to now, I thought you were pretty happy with Mec-gar mags. They are not crimped on the sides, but where is the seam? Have you (or anyone) communicated with Mec-gar about their process? Would be cool to document what they decided was an "efficient, modern" process. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

04-25-2016, 10:15 AM	#24
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	fxo's..... Hi to all! And good morning Don! ...... Yes I read the whole description of the gentlemen's recollection on the fxo fabrication... Annnd I agree with Don in that whether or not the machining was done as I surmise, or as the gentleman describes is a moot point as the results are same... Obviously, they got it done! But, some last minute points to let those who have some production thoughts to maybe see it in a little different light.... First off, I wasn't there... But, as to anything this far removed, there are always connect the dots and fill in the blanks moments when in all reality, we just don't know?.... So, we have the same issues we face in collecting, we have the item, and we have the story.... All I have is hands on experience in efforts to reproduce? Or repair?.... As a result, there are processes tried, and efforts made to replicate items using what ever skills and tools we can dream up ... In my efforts to fabricate magazines and tools there are some constants that I have learned the hard way, and one of them is, a precision magazine shell is NOT ever made, formed, or welded over a mandrel???? ........ because, you can't remove it! Even with a hydraulic press and it deforms over it's length before it moves!!!!! In fact you need a large tolerance to even have a remote chance at a slip fit, .015"+ would be pretty close... (I know they could have had split mandrels and multi part forming dies, but I'd bet that was overkill for an item like this?) I would go so far as to bet that the magazines never ever saw a mandrel past the forming die that gave them there initial shape... There is reliefs, spring back, and lubrications to deal with and none of it compliments the next operation.... But, that being said, I do find the welding on the ceramic a pretty neat concept, and we have done the same with carbon and brass if the piece is large enough to wick away the heat! I don't believe special filler rod was used, I think it was just butt welded and ground down, the discoloration is from the welding process its self... But again, that's just me... If I ever do try to make a magazine, I'm not going the route the book describes, as I've already stumbled along that path!... BTW, Don, the new, (and old) MEC-GAR magazines are welded just as were the fxo magazines.. only now, probably computer MIG welded in a controlled atmosphere ... perfect inside, ground smooth outside! Best to all, til...lat'r....GT.....