42 luger - Page 2

John Sabato · 03-12-2002, 10:40 AM

without having numbers on them are nothing like guns that have, and then had them removed.

Many times tool room samples of gun parts are not numbered and somewhere along the line accountability for the items gets lost.

Without some traceability, there is no way to prove what is stolen and what isn't...

Those guns in collector hands that have no numbers are usually prominent pieces of their collection and were acquired with a legal traceable paper trail that relieves them of accountability... This is a far cry from having a gun that has had the numbers removed to prevent traceability.

To this day, an ordinary citizen can legally fabricate any type of otherwise legal weapon on their own, for their own use, and no serial numbers have to be applied to it... This is the reason there are so many AR15 80% finished castings sold in this country. It isn't considered a firearm by ATF until it is much more than 80% finished...

If a current owner of a firearm manufacturer chose to personally build themselves an unserial numbered Luger (The Krause Lugers for example) that was for their own use in a personal collection, this is perfectly legal. Weapons made in this fashion can not be made with the pre-existing intent to sell. But I am sure that does not preclude the sale of such a personal firearm at some later time...

I think the ATF would monitor closely any manufacturer that made more than just a couple of these 'personal' firearms, and would revoke the FFL of anyone who practiced this with regularity...

I know several folks who have successfully built such rifles for their own use legally... This ability to manufacture for personal use does not necessarily extend to areas where a particular type of firearm has been banned such as California.

If you are interested in building your own firearms, the AR15 is an excellent choice... Visit www.ar15.com and check out the build-it-yourself forum...

best,

John Sabato

Kyrie · 03-12-2002, 04:16 PM

Hi Bob,

The true nightmare scenario with firearms that have obliterated serial numbers is getting caught with them and having a positive ballistic match come back indicating the firearm was used in an unsolved murder. At that point you can expect questions of the Ã¢??Where were you on the night of...Ã¢?Â type, from LEOs, who know two things:

1) The firearm was in your possession, and

2) The firearm was used in a crime.

If you cannot demonstrate you acquired the firearm after the crime, and have no provable alibi, things can get very nasty very quickly since there is physical evidence linking you to the crime.

All of which is why itÃ¢??s wise to avoid firearms with obliterated or altered numbers as if they were the plague.

Best regards,

Kyrie

Moderator - Cruffler_Forum on Yahoo Groups

"The flame free C&R Forum."

BILL · 03-12-2002, 06:52 PM

I agree that giving the gun back is the best option. As for being accused of murder..well, yes, that is a worst case scenario for sure. But, since it takes 12 people to agree that you are guilty the odds of that are very beatable. I can't find twelve people who will agree on anything anymore.

03-13-2002, 05:55 AM

With my luck I would get 12 People who don't like to argue and be convicted.

schwob · 03-15-2002, 10:51 PM

I may stand corrected, but I believe a very good lab tech can bring up the obliterated or ground off/down serial numbers. It has something to do the molecular structure of the metal when it has been struck by a stamping press. Can any of our engineers add to this? I personally would get rid of the weapon. Give it back to the guy you acquired it from. If he is in law enforcement, he should know better. Can you tell me please, what area of the country did this happen?

03-16-2002, 01:14 AM

You are correct Schwob .

The process is technically called raising the number.

It is performed by acid etching the surface.

The principal is that compacted metal resists etching more than the surrounding area, leaving a contrasting light area where the dies compressed the metal.

will not always work but I wouldnt bet my future that it would'nt !

ViggoG

03-12-2002, 10:40 AM	#21
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Guns that made it through the manufacturing process without having numbers on them are nothing like guns that have, and then had them removed. Many times tool room samples of gun parts are not numbered and somewhere along the line accountability for the items gets lost. Without some traceability, there is no way to prove what is stolen and what isn't... Those guns in collector hands that have no numbers are usually prominent pieces of their collection and were acquired with a legal traceable paper trail that relieves them of accountability... This is a far cry from having a gun that has had the numbers removed to prevent traceability. To this day, an ordinary citizen can legally fabricate any type of otherwise legal weapon on their own, for their own use, and no serial numbers have to be applied to it... This is the reason there are so many AR15 80% finished castings sold in this country. It isn't considered a firearm by ATF until it is much more than 80% finished... If a current owner of a firearm manufacturer chose to personally build themselves an unserial numbered Luger (The Krause Lugers for example) that was for their own use in a personal collection, this is perfectly legal. Weapons made in this fashion can not be made with the pre-existing intent to sell. But I am sure that does not preclude the sale of such a personal firearm at some later time... I think the ATF would monitor closely any manufacturer that made more than just a couple of these 'personal' firearms, and would revoke the FFL of anyone who practiced this with regularity... I know several folks who have successfully built such rifles for their own use legally... This ability to manufacture for personal use does not necessarily extend to areas where a particular type of firearm has been banned such as California. If you are interested in building your own firearms, the AR15 is an excellent choice... Visit www.ar15.com and check out the build-it-yourself forum... best, John Sabato

03-12-2002, 04:16 PM	#22
Kyrie User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 757 Thanks: 0 Thanked 212 Times in 101 Posts	Re: 42 luger Hi Bob, The true nightmare scenario with firearms that have obliterated serial numbers is getting caught with them and having a positive ballistic match come back indicating the firearm was used in an unsolved murder. At that point you can expect questions of the Ã¢??Where were you on the night of...Ã¢?Â type, from LEOs, who know two things: 1) The firearm was in your possession, and 2) The firearm was used in a crime. If you cannot demonstrate you acquired the firearm after the crime, and have no provable alibi, things can get very nasty very quickly since there is physical evidence linking you to the crime. All of which is why itÃ¢??s wise to avoid firearms with obliterated or altered numbers as if they were the plague. Best regards, Kyrie Moderator - Cruffler_Forum on Yahoo Groups "The flame free C&R Forum."

03-12-2002, 06:52 PM	#23
BILL User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Western Washington Posts: 826 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 42 luger I agree that giving the gun back is the best option. As for being accused of murder..well, yes, that is a worst case scenario for sure. But, since it takes 12 people to agree that you are guilty the odds of that are very beatable. I can't find twelve people who will agree on anything anymore.

03-13-2002, 05:55 AM	#24
Bob Kelly Guest Posts: n/a	Re: 42 luger With my luck I would get 12 People who don't like to argue and be convicted.

03-15-2002, 10:51 PM	#25
schwob RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Coast of Maine Posts: 273 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: 42 luger I may stand corrected, but I believe a very good lab tech can bring up the obliterated or ground off/down serial numbers. It has something to do the molecular structure of the metal when it has been struck by a stamping press. Can any of our engineers add to this? I personally would get rid of the weapon. Give it back to the guy you acquired it from. If he is in law enforcement, he should know better. Can you tell me please, what area of the country did this happen?

03-16-2002, 01:14 AM	#26
Viggo G Dereng Guest Posts: n/a	Re: 42 luger You are correct Schwob . The process is technically called raising the number. It is performed by acid etching the surface. The principal is that compacted metal resists etching more than the surrounding area, leaving a contrasting light area where the dies compressed the metal. will not always work but I wouldnt bet my future that it would'nt ! ViggoG