.45 Caliber Luger at Norton Gallery in Shreveport LA is CONFIRMED.

John Sabato · 04-13-2001, 09:40 AM

I just got an email reply from the Norton Gallery in Shreveport. They confirm that they do possess a .45 Caliber Luger pistol. I hope that Hugh Clark decided it was worth it to visit while passing through there yesterday and today (and took his digital camera!).

In any event, even though we don't know the serial number yet, here is their reply:

Dear Mr. Sabato:

Thank you for your inquiry. We do, indeed, have a Luger .45 cal. pistol. I will send you information and an llustration of the pistol by mail in a few days.

Sincerely,

Jerry Bloomer

R.W. Norton Art Gallery

Ted · 04-13-2001, 10:03 AM

John, I know in the higher up collections this was known but I dont know if any one Kenyon, Datig, etc has EXAMINED IT! That would really be great if they have. Johnny Peppers told me about it a couple of years ago, but I like many didnt know if it was truly hearsay or a documented fact! I wonder what the Museum values it at? Ted

John Sabato · 04-13-2001, 10:17 AM

As soon as it arrives next week. I have replied to the email and requested to know the serial number of their specimen is, and hope that they reply before the package gets here. I think this is really exciting news.

I will report any additional information as I learn it.

-John

Ted · 04-13-2001, 10:19 AM

It is exciting indeed and thank you for compiling the infor and getting it in a form that everyone can see. A nice segment to add to the 45 Luger segment on this forum would be appropriate!

bill m · 04-13-2001, 12:25 PM

Is this for real? Where has this gun been for the last 90 years? Where did it come from, and how come there is no pictures of it anywhere? I hope it is real, but I have my doubts, especially until it is confirmed as being a real and authentic piece. As far as I know, there are only two known to be real, and this would make the third. I'll be waiting for the "rest of the story".

Matt · 04-13-2001, 12:27 PM

John Sabato · 04-13-2001, 01:04 PM

this. There have recently been unconfirmed reports that there were as many as SIX manufactured. Where the rest of them are is anyone's guess. If they do exist, I think they are probably on the bottom of somebody's grandfather's keepsake trunk! I anxiously await the serial number on this one. If it is #1, then one mystery has been solved. If it is #3 or later, then a whole new mystery has opened up for speculation...

The museum curator confirmed what we learned in a thread several weeks ago. I will convert the info and illustration they send me to a web page for Dok to add to the .45 Cal Luger History when I get it.

-John

bill m · 04-13-2001, 02:21 PM

So Harry Jones had two in his book "Luger Variations" and this Norton one supposedly came from Harry. I have that book and have looked at those pictures many times. Interesting, but there must be a lot more to this story. Why didn't Jones picture it in his books, or perhaps he did, and this is one of the two known? I have heard that there was another one someplace, but no one had ever seen it and most thought it was a "ghost". I guess I should be from Missouri instead of Montana, because I'm going to have to have some more information on this before I'm convinced. Kinda like the 2 1910 Erfurts that showed up after 90 years in different ends of the United STates, and then within 6 months of each other. Are they real, or were they made by the same faker. The 45 sounds very interesting and I hope it is correct, but no pictures, hid away all this time, no articles in Auto Mag or ect., and just recently brought out of the woodwork? You know, auctions and collectors go all over the world tracking down leads, and it just seems very unlikely that a 45 stayed hidden, but shot, and known about by a certain few, with no leaks for this long. Be nice if it was a real one, and I will sure be waiting for more information.

Johnny Peppers · 04-13-2001, 03:40 PM

I had a post on the .45 caliber Luger in the Norton Gallery some time back when there was a discussion of there being only one of the big pistols left. I have seen the pistol on several occasions and can assure you that the pistol is authentic. The pistol origially came out of Canada and was offered to one dealer/collector for $5000, but when it came time to exchange the pistol for money the price had gone up to $6000. Harry Jones then bought the pistol for $6000 and sold it to Mr. Norton of Shreveport, Louisiana, for $10,000. The pistol is serial number 3, has a C/N proof, and has the GL proof on the rear of the toggle. I believe that it was in one of Harry Jones books where he described shooting the big pistol with Mr. Norton.

I can also state without need of confirmation that the Norton Gallery also has a beautiful collection of Russell and Remington bronzes and paintings.

Also the .45 cal. Luger in the Norton Gallery is pictured in Scott Meadows "U.S. MILITARY AUTOMATIC PISTOLS 1894-1920".

bill m · 04-13-2001, 04:05 PM

Thanks Johnny,

This gun is pictured in "Luger Variations" and stated that it is in the collection of Richard W Norton. So this is not a newly found 45, but one of the existing two known. Thanks -- At Kansas City last January, a man stated that another 45 was reported in a safe someplace, but I forget where now, with the serial number I believe he said #5. This guy said he did not own it, but had seen it. No one else had heard of it and so far it hasn't surfaced to my knowledge.

bill m · 04-13-2001, 06:19 PM

My fault guys on mis-understanding that this wasn't a new found 45. That "Confirmed" got me, as I presumed that this was something new. This gun has been "confirmed" a long time ago, and is pictured in color on Harry Jones "Luger Variations", so if you want to see a nice picture of it, there it is.

Ted · 04-13-2001, 10:31 PM

The picture in my "Luger Variations" is Black and White on page 108

bill m · 04-13-2001, 10:43 PM

Mine is on about the 3rd page in color.

John Sabato · 04-16-2001, 10:47 AM

Ted · 04-16-2001, 11:11 AM

Mine is not in color

Ted · 04-16-2001, 11:22 AM

Everybody kept talking about a color photo in "Luger Variations" All my copy of that reference book is Black and White! It was written circa 1956, lots of new information has surfaced and some of the information is not correct. They show military models with sear safetys going to the military with no mention of the Police issue! Other things I noticed are not correct either! I really like the book however! Ted

John Sabato · 04-16-2001, 02:14 PM

Ted · 04-16-2001, 02:21 PM

No problem, I wish I had a color version, dont know why my addtion doesnt have it!

04-13-2001, 10:03 AM	#2
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: .45 Caliber Luger at Norton Gallery in Shreveport LA is CONFIRMED. John, I know in the higher up collections this was known but I dont know if any one Kenyon, Datig, etc has EXAMINED IT! That would really be great if they have. Johnny Peppers told me about it a couple of years ago, but I like many didnt know if it was truly hearsay or a documented fact! I wonder what the Museum values it at? Ted

04-13-2001, 10:19 AM	#4
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: I will post the information they are sending me via snail mail It is exciting indeed and thank you for compiling the infor and getting it in a form that everyone can see. A nice segment to add to the 45 Luger segment on this forum would be appropriate!

04-13-2001, 12:27 PM	#6
Matt User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 196 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Great news guys! Can't wait to learn the details. (EOM)

04-13-2001, 01:04 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	bill m, do a search on .45 and you will see the thread that started this. There have recently been unconfirmed reports that there were as many as SIX manufactured. Where the rest of them are is anyone's guess. If they do exist, I think they are probably on the bottom of somebody's grandfather's keepsake trunk! I anxiously await the serial number on this one. If it is #1, then one mystery has been solved. If it is #3 or later, then a whole new mystery has opened up for speculation... The museum curator confirmed what we learned in a thread several weeks ago. I will convert the info and illustration they send me to a web page for Dok to add to the .45 Cal Luger History when I get it. -John

04-13-2001, 02:21 PM	#8
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: bill m, do a search on .45 and you will see the thread that starte So Harry Jones had two in his book "Luger Variations" and this Norton one supposedly came from Harry. I have that book and have looked at those pictures many times. Interesting, but there must be a lot more to this story. Why didn't Jones picture it in his books, or perhaps he did, and this is one of the two known? I have heard that there was another one someplace, but no one had ever seen it and most thought it was a "ghost". I guess I should be from Missouri instead of Montana, because I'm going to have to have some more information on this before I'm convinced. Kinda like the 2 1910 Erfurts that showed up after 90 years in different ends of the United STates, and then within 6 months of each other. Are they real, or were they made by the same faker. The 45 sounds very interesting and I hope it is correct, but no pictures, hid away all this time, no articles in Auto Mag or ect., and just recently brought out of the woodwork? You know, auctions and collectors go all over the world tracking down leads, and it just seems very unlikely that a 45 stayed hidden, but shot, and known about by a certain few, with no leaks for this long. Be nice if it was a real one, and I will sure be waiting for more information.

04-13-2001, 09:40 AM	#1
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	.45 Caliber Luger at Norton Gallery in Shreveport LA is CONFIRMED. I just got an email reply from the Norton Gallery in Shreveport. They confirm that they do possess a .45 Caliber Luger pistol. I hope that Hugh Clark decided it was worth it to visit while passing through there yesterday and today (and took his digital camera!). In any event, even though we don't know the serial number yet, here is their reply: Dear Mr. Sabato: Thank you for your inquiry. We do, indeed, have a Luger .45 cal. pistol. I will send you information and an llustration of the pistol by mail in a few days. Sincerely, Jerry Bloomer R.W. Norton Art Gallery

04-13-2001, 10:17 AM	#3
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I will post the information they are sending me via snail mail As soon as it arrives next week. I have replied to the email and requested to know the serial number of their specimen is, and hope that they reply before the package gets here. I think this is really exciting news. I will report any additional information as I learn it. -John

04-13-2001, 12:25 PM	#5
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: .45 Caliber Luger at Norton Gallery in Shreveport LA is CONFIRMED. Is this for real? Where has this gun been for the last 90 years? Where did it come from, and how come there is no pictures of it anywhere? I hope it is real, but I have my doubts, especially until it is confirmed as being a real and authentic piece. As far as I know, there are only two known to be real, and this would make the third. I'll be waiting for the "rest of the story".

04-13-2001, 03:40 PM	#9
Johnny Peppers User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Calion, Arkansas Posts: 1,042 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Re: bill m, do a search on .45 and you will see the thread that starte I had a post on the .45 caliber Luger in the Norton Gallery some time back when there was a discussion of there being only one of the big pistols left. I have seen the pistol on several occasions and can assure you that the pistol is authentic. The pistol origially came out of Canada and was offered to one dealer/collector for $5000, but when it came time to exchange the pistol for money the price had gone up to $6000. Harry Jones then bought the pistol for $6000 and sold it to Mr. Norton of Shreveport, Louisiana, for $10,000. The pistol is serial number 3, has a C/N proof, and has the GL proof on the rear of the toggle. I believe that it was in one of Harry Jones books where he described shooting the big pistol with Mr. Norton. I can also state without need of confirmation that the Norton Gallery also has a beautiful collection of Russell and Remington bronzes and paintings. Also the .45 cal. Luger in the Norton Gallery is pictured in Scott Meadows "U.S. MILITARY AUTOMATIC PISTOLS 1894-1920".

04-13-2001, 04:05 PM	#10
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: bill m, do a search on .45 and you will see the thread that starte Thanks Johnny, This gun is pictured in "Luger Variations" and stated that it is in the collection of Richard W Norton. So this is not a newly found 45, but one of the existing two known. Thanks -- At Kansas City last January, a man stated that another 45 was reported in a safe someplace, but I forget where now, with the serial number I believe he said #5. This guy said he did not own it, but had seen it. No one else had heard of it and so far it hasn't surfaced to my knowledge.

04-13-2001, 06:19 PM	#11
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: .45 Caliber Luger at Norton Gallery in Shreveport LA is CONFIRMED. My fault guys on mis-understanding that this wasn't a new found 45. That "Confirmed" got me, as I presumed that this was something new. This gun has been "confirmed" a long time ago, and is pictured in color on Harry Jones "Luger Variations", so if you want to see a nice picture of it, there it is.

04-13-2001, 10:31 PM	#12
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: .45 Caliber Luger at Norton Gallery in Shreveport LA is CONFIRMED. The picture in my "Luger Variations" is Black and White on page 108

04-13-2001, 10:43 PM	#13
bill m User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 385 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: .45 Caliber Luger at Norton Gallery in Shreveport LA is CONFIRMED. Mine is on about the 3rd page in color.

04-16-2001, 10:47 AM	#14
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	How about posting that color photo Ted? (EOM)

04-16-2001, 11:11 AM	#15
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: How about posting that color photo Ted? Mine is not in color

04-16-2001, 11:22 AM	#16
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: How about posting that color photo Ted? Everybody kept talking about a color photo in "Luger Variations" All my copy of that reference book is Black and White! It was written circa 1956, lots of new information has surfaced and some of the information is not correct. They show military models with sear safetys going to the military with no mention of the Police issue! Other things I noticed are not correct either! I really like the book however! Ted

04-16-2001, 02:14 PM	#17
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Sorry Ted, How about bill m, posting that color photo then? (EOM)

04-16-2001, 02:21 PM	#18
Ted User Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: SC Posts: 726 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Re: Sorry Ted, How about bill m, posting that color photo then? No problem, I wish I had a color version, dont know why my addtion doesnt have it!