S Simson question

jfxcushman · 01-31-2012, 11:16 AM

Folks,

I have an S Simson, s/n 7005 which has a period replaced Simson E/6 proofed 30 cal barrel. There are only 2 E/6 proofs on the right receiver, and all otherr areas are E/6 proofed as well. I posted pics on the Still forum about a year ago.
There were questions concenring the S being found on a non-a suffix Luger, as well as the 30 cal barrel.
There was nice haloing around the benchmark on the frame and barrel.

My contention was this Luger probably went to the Reichsbahn, and was possibly initially a 9 mm before Simson rebarreled in 30 cal.

Are there other 30 caliber original Simsons out there?
Are there any S Simsons in the non-a suffix range? I know one anecdotal S Simson Luger with a 7000 range and non a suffix.

If requested I will post pics of this Luger.

Kind regards,
Jerry

mrerick · 01-31-2012, 02:45 PM

Jerry, I'd like to see it.

Ed Tinker on this board is a specialist on Simson Lugers, and has published a book on the subject.

I wonder if it's possible that the re-barrel occurred in the "a" suffix timeframe, and thus got the "S" markings then...

Marc

jfxcushman · 01-31-2012, 03:53 PM

I will post pics tomorrow Marc. Ed has seen it on the other forum.
Jerry

Edward Tinker · 01-31-2012, 04:53 PM

No 30 lugers made that are documented (you'd think there would be more than one).

ABSOLUTELY no S toggles that are not 'a' suffix. None, zero, nada, none. My data has hundreds of Simson lugers and not one documented S toggle has turned up that was original that is not a 'a' suffix.

7000 serial range is simply too low compared to empirical evidence of others. I do not discount the possibility that it went back to the factory and was given a 30 luger barrel and an S toggle at that time, anything is possible...

jfxcushman · 01-31-2012, 06:14 PM

Ed,
If you are coming to Louisville I'd love to show it to you. As I said, I know of another S toggle in the 7000 range, but it is anectdotal. I will sned you a PM on it.
Jerry

jfxcushman · 02-01-2012, 01:54 PM

Here are the first of the pics. More to follow.
Jerry

jfxcushman · 02-01-2012, 01:56 PM

Thanks in advance for looking. The forward toggle link appears to be renumbered from 09 to 05 on the left side view.
Jerry

Edward Tinker · 02-01-2012, 05:23 PM

I have never seen the stock lug eagle 6's so off-set...

William Hull · 02-01-2012, 08:47 PM

Jerry

Thanks for posting on your very unusual Simson.

Why do you think there are only two acceptance proofs on the right receiver? Since there is no firing proof on the receiver, could this pistol left the factory in a lunch box?

William

jfxcushman · 02-02-2012, 10:19 AM

William,
I surmise this pistol, which is 30 cal barreled, went to the Reichsbahn Direktion (railroads). They were one of the few government agencies that used 30 cal. The police were using 9 mm by this time. It is definitely proofed Simson on the barrel in 2 spots, maybe one was for the initial parts inspection as Simson did not make 30 cal barrels, and the second was after final assembly. If as Ed surmises, this gun was rebarreled some time later, then it should have had the 3rd proof on the right receiver as it left the factory. As Ed said, Simson made no commercial Lugers, indeed there are no C/N proofs on it.
The pistol is a puzzle to me.
Jerry

01-31-2012, 11:16 AM	#1
jfxcushman User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	S Simson question Folks, I have an S Simson, s/n 7005 which has a period replaced Simson E/6 proofed 30 cal barrel. There are only 2 E/6 proofs on the right receiver, and all otherr areas are E/6 proofed as well. I posted pics on the Still forum about a year ago. There were questions concenring the S being found on a non-a suffix Luger, as well as the 30 cal barrel. There was nice haloing around the benchmark on the frame and barrel. My contention was this Luger probably went to the Reichsbahn, and was possibly initially a 9 mm before Simson rebarreled in 30 cal. Are there other 30 caliber original Simsons out there? Are there any S Simsons in the non-a suffix range? I know one anecdotal S Simson Luger with a 7000 range and non a suffix. If requested I will post pics of this Luger. Kind regards, Jerry

01-31-2012, 02:45 PM	#2
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Jerry, I'd like to see it. Ed Tinker on this board is a specialist on Simson Lugers, and has published a book on the subject. I wonder if it's possible that the re-barrel occurred in the "a" suffix timeframe, and thus got the "S" markings then... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

01-31-2012, 04:53 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	No 30 lugers made that are documented (you'd think there would be more than one). ABSOLUTELY no S toggles that are not 'a' suffix. None, zero, nada, none. My data has hundreds of Simson lugers and not one documented S toggle has turned up that was original that is not a 'a' suffix. 7000 serial range is simply too low compared to empirical evidence of others. I do not discount the possibility that it went back to the factory and was given a 30 luger barrel and an S toggle at that time, anything is possible... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-01-2012, 01:54 PM	#6
jfxcushman User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	30cal S Simson Pics Here are the first of the pics. More to follow. Jerry Attached Thumbnails

02-01-2012, 01:56 PM	#7
jfxcushman User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Last Pics Thanks in advance for looking. The forward toggle link appears to be renumbered from 09 to 05 on the left side view. Jerry Attached Thumbnails

01-31-2012, 03:53 PM	#3
jfxcushman User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	I will post pics tomorrow Marc. Ed has seen it on the other forum. Jerry

01-31-2012, 06:14 PM	#5
jfxcushman User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Ed, If you are coming to Louisville I'd love to show it to you. As I said, I know of another S toggle in the 7000 range, but it is anectdotal. I will sned you a PM on it. Jerry

02-01-2012, 05:23 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	I have never seen the stock lug eagle 6's so off-set...

02-01-2012, 08:47 PM	#9
William Hull User Join Date: May 2008 Location: south central Kentucky--Tompkinsville Posts: 33 Thanks: 22 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Jerry Thanks for posting on your very unusual Simson. Why do you think there are only two acceptance proofs on the right receiver? Since there is no firing proof on the receiver, could this pistol left the factory in a lunch box? William

02-02-2012, 10:19 AM	#10
jfxcushman User Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 11 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	William, I surmise this pistol, which is 30 cal barreled, went to the Reichsbahn Direktion (railroads). They were one of the few government agencies that used 30 cal. The police were using 9 mm by this time. It is definitely proofed Simson on the barrel in 2 spots, maybe one was for the initial parts inspection as Simson did not make 30 cal barrels, and the second was after final assembly. If as Ed surmises, this gun was rebarreled some time later, then it should have had the 3rd proof on the right receiver as it left the factory. As Ed said, Simson made no commercial Lugers, indeed there are no C/N proofs on it. The pistol is a puzzle to me. Jerry