Plated bullet reloads?

[ChrisLL]

Hi Folks,

We have had great success in reloading Xtreme plated bullets in 9mm for some modern handguns. Thanks to GT, I now have a Luger shooter to feed as well.

I was wondering if anyone has reloaded for the Luger with the Xtreme plated bullets; I am interested in 115g bullet loads and also wondering about reloading their 100 g (listed as a 380). It is a Round Nose Flat point. If I reload the 100 g, bullet should I follow recommendations for OAL that have been made for a "truncated" style bullet? I suspect the truncated bullet referenced has a somewhat different profile.

I have searched for an article that was mentioned about Determining OAL by Sieger, but for some reason cannot seem to locate it.

Any info., suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

Chris

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by ChrisLL

Hi Folks,

We have had great success in reloading Xtreme plated bullets in 9mm for some modern handguns. Thanks to GT, I now have a Luger shooter to feed as well.

I was wondering if anyone has reloaded for the Luger with the Xtreme plated bullets; I am interested in 115g bullet loads and also wondering about reloading their 100 g (listed as a 380). It is a Round Nose Flat point. If I reload the 100 g, bullet should I follow recommendations for OAL that have been made for a "truncated" style bullet? I suspect the truncated bullet referenced has a somewhat different profile.

I have searched for an article that was mentioned about Determining OAL by Sieger, but for some reason cannot seem to locate it.

Any info., suggestions are appreciated. Thanks.

Chris

Chris,

Speak of the Devil, here I am again, ha!

For a Luger, I'd stick with either 115 or 124gr bullets, as the system, and its springs, were originally "timed" to this range of bullet weight (130grs will also just slip in under the wire, but barely).

Round nose flat points sound like a good .380 or 9mm Makarov defense effort, but I've had no luck feeding a Luger with a really, really excellently designed round nose flat point that Zero has in 124gr for the .357 Sig. They simply will not feed properly, no mater what O.A.L. I've tried with them.

Typically, round nose bullets will feed all eight cartridges through a Luger, without jamming, at around 1.173 inches of O.A.L., original DWM specs. With flat point truncated cone bullets, a good starting point is 1.14 inches of O.A.L., original DWM specs.

As to my article on determining proper O.A.L., right now, its on page 4, of Shooting and Reloading, second article down.

Good shooting, and PM me with any specific questions you may have!!


Sieger

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Speak of the Devil, here I am again, ha!

Ha!

As to my article on determining proper OAL, right now, its on...

Direct link -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=26493

Sieger/Bob has many posts on favorite loads which we hope he will consolidate into a single thread that we can refer to without Searching through his ~1,000 posts...

[ChrisLL]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

Ha!



Direct link -

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?t=26493

Sieger/Bob has many posts on favorite loads which we hope he will consolidate into a single thread that we can refer to without Searching through his ~1,000 posts...

Sounds good, maybe a "sticky".

[ChrisLL]

Thank you Sieger for the advice. I have reloaded quite a few cases over the years, but they have been mostly revolver. I am pretty new to the "auto" game which has new rules, and very new to the Luger (which seems to have it's very own set of rules) as I have yet to reload a case for the Luger.

The article on OAL looks great. Thanks for the advice and your contributions to the forum.

Chris

[Freischütz]

I have used the 115 gr bullet in Lugers. There wasn't anything special about them. The platting wasn't very thick so I belled the case mouth like I would for cast bullets.

Accuracy wasn't as good as a jacketed or properly fit cast bullet, but the plated were ok and didn't lead the barrel.

[stressed]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Chris,

Speak of the Devil, here I am again, ha!

For a Luger, I'd stick with either 115 or 124gr bullets, as the system, and its springs, were originally "timed" to this range of bullet weight (130grs will also just slip in under the wire, but barely).

Round nose flat points sound like a good .380 or 9mm Makarov defense effort, but I've had no luck feeding a Luger with a really, really excellent design round nose flat point that Zero has in 124gr for the .357 Sig. They simply will not feed properly, no mater what OAL I've tried with them.

Typically, round nose bullets will feed all eight cartridges through a Luger, without jamming, at around 1.173 inches of OAL, give or take. With flat point truncated cone bullets, a good starting point is 1.14 inches of OAL, give or take.

As to my article on determining proper OAL, right now, its on page 4, of Shooting and Reloading, second article down.

Good shooting, and PM me with any specific questions you may have!!


Sieger

It's interesting you mention this.

My luger functions flawlessly with all 105, 115 and 124.

When I ran a couple 147 FN FMJ it had a failure where it was like I set the round primer down in the open chamber, and closed the chamber on the side of the casing with the round unfired. Wonder why it did this.

Next week I was gonna do some chrono testing, and have a mag full of 158gr FMJ for the test. Guess I can expect those to fail. Subguns eat them like candy, and they remain subsonic through long 10"-16" barrels which is good if you use a suppresser.

[ChrisLL]

Originally Posted by Freischütz

I have used the 115 gr bullet in Lugers. There wasn't anything special about them. The platting wasn't very thick so I belled the case mouth like I would for cast bullets.

Accuracy wasn't as good as a jacketed or properly fit cast bullet, but the plated were ok and didn't lead the barrel.

Interesting about the accuracy. I have not checked that carefully, we have used a ton of them in Bersas, Glocks, etc.
Prices are very good, most often seem to be cheaper than lead cast.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by ChrisLL

Interesting about the accuracy. I have not checked that carefully, we have used a ton of them in Bersas, Glocks, etc.
Prices are very good, most often seem to be cheaper than lead cast.

Chris,

If you can, weigh some of your bullets and check for consistency in weight, as this is often an issue with cast bullets.

Also, are they .355 or .356 diameter?

Also, what powder are you planning on using?


Sieger

[Edward Tinker]

Originally Posted by ChrisLL

Sounds good, maybe a "sticky".

Done

[ChrisLL]

Originally Posted by Sieger

Chris,

If you can, weigh some of your bullets and check for consistency in weight, as this is often an issue with cast bullets.

Also, are they .355 or .356 diameter?

Also, what powder are you planning on using?


Sieger

I will have to weigh some for sure. They are all .355 (100g and 115g), I was originally going to try some of the 100's as I have a lot of them on hand.

Maybe I will order some of the 115's soon.

Powder ... I was thinking Unique. There is very limited powder available locally and hazardous ship rates make it not worth buying on-line. As I reload for numerous calibers I tend to buy powder that is somewhat versatile. For the most part I can get (when it's available) Unique, Titegroup, 700-X, Longshot.

I was thinking originally that it would be nice if I was able to get the 100g to perform decently in the Luger as I "stock" those for my 380 already; but the 115's are decently priced.

I don't mind shooting cast either, but it seems like the on-line suppliers come and go quickly, so I will have to do a little research there.

Chris

[sheepherder]

I am somewhat confused by what you mean by 'plated bullets'. A production military-type FMJ will be a copper 'cup' filled with lead. It is not 'plated'. I've never measured one but I'd bet the jacket is in the .010" - .015" range, at least. (Think 3 to 5 sheets of notebook paper thick). There's usually some copper jackets lying on the floor at the range; I'll grab one next time I'm there and measure it.

There is a kind of cheap bullet that is commonly called 'copper washed' which is exactly like it sounds. So thin you can pick it off with your fingernail. I would expect these to behave like a 'standard' lead bullet. I hate these; they will deform if you drop them, and sometimes just by loading them in a magazine.

Edit: I just walked over to the range (across the street; convenient, huh? If only there was powder available)...And picked half-a-dozen jackets out of the bullet trap...they all measure .012" - .015"...

Curiously, the .012" jackets were a gold color rather than copper, indicating a higher percentage of brass...The paper can had some 'Tulammo' boxes on top, I wonder if these Russian 9mm bullets are the gold ones???

[Patronen]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

I am somewhat confused by what you mean by 'plated bullets'. A production military-type FMJ will be a copper 'cup' filled with lead. It is not 'plated'. I've never measured one but I'd bet the jacket is in the .010" - .015" range, at least. (Think 3 to 5 sheets of notebook paper thick). There's usually some copper jackets lying on the floor at the range; I'll grab one next time I'm there and measure it.

There is a kind of cheap bullet that is commonly called 'copper washed' which is exactly like it sounds. So thin you can pick it off with your fingernail. I would expect these to behave like a 'standard' lead bullet. I hate these; they will deform if you drop them, and sometimes just by loading them in a magazine.

A few years back a guy at a gun show was peddling the copper washed bullets saying people were buying them to get around gun club range rules that banned lead ammo. Your spot on when you say you can pick it off with a fingernail.

[ChrisLL]

Originally Posted by sheepherder

I am somewhat confused by what you mean by 'plated bullets'. A production military-type FMJ will be a copper 'cup' filled with lead. It is not 'plated'. I've never measured one but I'd bet the jacket is in the .010" - .015" range, at least. (Think 3 to 5 sheets of notebook paper thick). There's usually some copper jackets lying on the floor at the range; I'll grab one next time I'm there and measure it.

There is a kind of cheap bullet that is commonly called 'copper washed' which is exactly like it sounds. So thin you can pick it off with your fingernail. I would expect these to behave like a 'standard' lead bullet. I hate these; they will deform if you drop them, and sometimes just by loading them in a magazine.

Edit: I just walked over to the range (across the street; convenient, huh? If only there was powder available)...And picked half-a-dozen jackets out of the bullet trap...they all measure .012" - .015"...

Curiously, the .012" jackets were a gold color rather than copper, indicating a higher percentage of brass...The paper can had some 'Tulammo' boxes on top, I wonder if these Russian 9mm bullets are the gold ones???

http://www.xtremebullets.com/category-s/1820.htm

http://www.rainierballistics.com/

xtreme also makes a "heavy plated" 9mm: http://www.xtremebullets.com/9mm-115...hpcb-b0500.htm

We have shot a lot of the xtreme plated, even in a Glock with factory barrel (which has issues w/cast) and no leading/copper issues in barrels.

These seem to have a decent coating, recommended to keep velocity <1200 fps with standard coated and <1500 fps with heavy plated. They are not like the .22 copper plated bullets.

Chris

ps. - just wanted to apologize for saying "Glock" on the forum also, you can see the Xtreme bullets are reasonably priced, the prices shown include shipping.

[noylj]

Why not buy real jacketed bullets from Montana Gold and Precision Delta instead of questionable plated?
All of my Lugers feed and shoot 115gn and 124gn L-SWCs with aplomb, so a truncated come or RNFP should not be problem. I find my Browning HP to be much more finicky feeder than any Lugers.
COL:
First determine max COL--the length that will just allow the round the chamber with bullet just touching the lede/rifling/lands.
Check if round will fit magazine. If not, adjust COL until round fits magazine.
With round in magazine, test feed and chambering. When everything functions right, this will be max working COL for this particular bullet and, in many cases, will also be the most accurate COL.
Keep seating bullet deeper until round no longer feeds/chambers reliably. Just above this point is the min working COL for this particular bullet. Somewhere in between "might" be a "universal" COL that will work in assorted guns, but it will not likely be optimum in any of them.
The main Luger issue I have is the toggle. I don't have enough leverage to pull back the toggle if the round jams, so I always ease the toggle down when testing.
There is reloading and there is handloading.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by noylj

...All of my Lugers feed and shoot 115gn and 124gn L-SWCs with aplomb...

Hi,

I've had a lot of success with LSWCs as well, but not all designs of them will feed properly.

One manufacturer's LSWCs feeds perfectly, while another's actually jumps out of the pistol into midair. The problem here is that the cutting edge shoulder, of this particular design LSWC, hits the feeding ramp in such a way as to cause it to angle up significantly enough to miss the ramp altogether under the violent action of the toggle.

If you would, would you share the manufacturer, or mold manufacturer if you roll your own, of the specific LSWC you have had success with? Also, would you share the O.A.L. you load these to in a Luger?

Thanks!


Sieger

[ChrisLL]

Originally Posted by noylj

Why not buy real jacketed bullets from Montana Gold and Precision Delta instead of questionable plated?
All of my Lugers feed and shoot 115gn and 124gn L-SWCs with aplomb, so a truncated come or RNFP should not be problem. I find my Browning HP to be much more finicky feeder than any Lugers.
COL:
First determine max COL--the length that will just allow the round the chamber with bullet just touching the lede/rifling/lands.
Check if round will fit magazine. If not, adjust COL until round fits magazine.
With round in magazine, test feed and chambering. When everything functions right, this will be max working COL for this particular bullet and, in many cases, will also be the most accurate COL.
Keep seating bullet deeper until round no longer feeds/chambers reliably. Just above this point is the min working COL for this particular bullet. Somewhere in between "might" be a "universal" COL that will work in assorted guns, but it will not likely be optimum in any of them.
The main Luger issue I have is the toggle. I don't have enough leverage to pull back the toggle if the round jams, so I always ease the toggle down when testing.
There is reloading and there is handloading.

My main reason is cost. 500/115g from Xtreme = $42.22 shipped. Delta $55/500 (can't actually buy 500, that's the 1/2 of1000 lot price; Montana = $100.

Second reason is that we already load a lot of the Xtreme bullets, including 9mm so it would be nice to use the same bullet. If it doesn't work out the Delta's are not too much more so that is an option.

I guess another option would be cast, but most of those tend to be more than the plated, and we don't currently use any in 9mm (Glocks don't do well with cast in the factory barrels).

Thanks for the info on COL and the suggestions.

Chris

[noylj]

Cast L-SWC bullets in P-08s:
Lee 358-105-SWC @ 1.015-1.040"
MasterBlaster .38 Super 115gn L-SWC @ 1.067-1.117"
Penn 115gn L-SWC @ 1.025-1.040"
Maybe I haven't run any 124gn through a P-08 yet!
COL is dependent on the nose (ogive) length of the particular SWC, since in most cases you want the shoulder to just touch the lede/rifling/lands, so you need to always determine it for the individual chamber.
I just don't know. With good cast bullets, I get groups of 1-3" at 25 yards. With good jacketed bullets, I get groups of 1-3" at 25 yards. With the plated bullets I have bought to date, I get groups of 2-12" at 25 yards. Thus, I just don't have much faith in plated to do much more than put a hole in the paper.

[Sieger]

Originally Posted by noylj

Cast L-SWC bullets in P-08s:
Lee 358-105-SWC @ 1.015-1.040"
MasterBlaster .38 Super 115gn L-SWC @ 1.067-1.117"
Penn 115gn L-SWC @ 1.025-1.040"
Maybe I haven't run any 124gn through a P-08 yet!
COL is dependent on the nose (ogive) length of the particular SWC, since in most cases you want the shoulder to just touch the lede/rifling/lands, so you need to always determine it for the individual chamber.
I just don't know. With good cast bullets, I get groups of 1-3" at 25 yards. With good jacketed bullets, I get groups of 1-3" at 25 yards. With the plated bullets I have bought to date, I get groups of 2-12" at 25 yards. Thus, I just don't have much faith in plated to do much more than put a hole in the paper.

Hi,

Thanks for the above information!

By the way, at such short O.A.L.s, are you shooting with full, 8 round magazines?

Here is a good cast lead bullet for you in 124 gr. It's the RCBS 09-124-CN. It is a 124 grain, conical, flat point, that, when loaded to the original DWM O.A.L. of 29 mm (1.14 inches), just kisses the rifling. It feeds and functions with a full 8 round magazine, perfectly, and is highly accurate, .5 to 1.0 inches, at 25 yards, with Accurate #5 powder (start at 5.0 grs and work up to about 5.5, or so).


Sieger

[ChrisLL]

Originally Posted by noylj

Cast L-SWC bullets in P-08s:
Lee 358-105-SWC @ 1.015-1.040"
MasterBlaster .38 Super 115gn L-SWC @ 1.067-1.117"
Penn 115gn L-SWC @ 1.025-1.040"
Maybe I haven't run any 124gn through a P-08 yet!
COL is dependent on the nose (ogive) length of the particular SWC, since in most cases you want the shoulder to just touch the lede/rifling/lands, so you need to always determine it for the individual chamber.
I just don't know. With good cast bullets, I get groups of 1-3" at 25 yards. With good jacketed bullets, I get groups of 1-3" at 25 yards. With the plated bullets I have bought to date, I get groups of 2-12" at 25 yards. Thus, I just don't have much faith in plated to do much more than put a hole in the paper.

As I noted, I have done no accuracy comparisons, and very new to Lugers, so thank you for the info.; I appreciate the input.

Any suggestions about vendors of cast bullets?

Chris