Second luger - shooter...key holing issues

[bubbapug1]

I posted a while back about another matching Luger I bought. The recommendation was not to shoot the gun as it was a piece of history, and not many matching guns are around any longer.
I took that to heart and have refused to shoot the other Luger, and have pursued finding a shooter. Here in California they don’t pop up that much, and some folks have a very biased idea of what an unmatched beater should be priced at….

When this one popped up I jumped on it. As its plated I understand it is not worth much, but it has many matching parts, and was represented to be in great working condition. I immediately went to the range and gave it a whirl having never shot any luger! The gun feeds and fires flawlessly, but alas the bullets tumble at 7 yards. I shot some WWB out of it, and some reloads. The rifling is worn, but it looks better than my P38 which shoots well enough.

Any ideas on how I can have my cake and eat it too? I find the action on the luger to be very smooth and comfortable to shoot, but I’d like to see round holes, not keyholes!!









Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[bubbapug1]

A few more pics…I will try to get a rifling shot posted tomorrow.

[mrerick]

How worn is the rifling? Are there any inconsistencies in it, like a ring partially down the barrel or nick damage at the muzzle? A squib improperly removed could leave significant damage.

Check to see how far a 9mm fmj bullet will fit down the muzzle. There should be a fair amount of space between where it stops and the cartridge case mouth ends.

If the barrel is shot out, it can be replaced.

Marc

[bubbapug1]

The rifling appears very consistent, but not very pronounced. Its definitely worn, and has some alligator cracking, but not much pitting. I will try to get macro pics tomorrow posted.

A bullet cannot be inserted much farter into the muzzle than it drops into a new sig.

Perplexed for sure, this thing should shoot.

[mrerick]

The cracking could be the plating wearing inconsistently. I don't know if that could be causing the problem.

[lugerholsterrepair]

keyholing is caused when the bullet fails to achieve dynamic flight and that is usually a number of things collectively. Is there any bulge in the barrel? Run your finger along the shaft to detect even a bump you can't see..
Like Mark says..check the muzzle diameter with a 9mm bullet. Does every bullet keyhole or only some? 7 yards and something is seriously out of whack..have you shot any at say 100-200 feet to see if bullets are striking the dirt feet or yards off?
Have you looked at the witness marks to see if they are aligned? Is the barrel tightly screwed in?
The lands and grooves are there to provide twist to stabalize flight..there might just not be enough.

[Ron Wood]

I have seen nearly shot out barrels that could still launch an accurate round down range. I strongly suspect that the problem is not one of rifling but of the crown at the muzzle. A dent or out of round condition at the muzzle profoundly alters the exit dynamics of the bullet.

[bubbapug1]

Now that you brought up the muzzle issue it does appear as if the plating is not perfect in that area, as in there is some extra material and high spots on the interior diameter. I'll try to get some shots.

As to barrel bulge..no visible bulges, nor any perceptible by touch either, and its the original barrel stamped 522, and than underneath that it says 383.

I am going to mic the muzzle to se if its concentric. I just had a 1911 have that exact issue.

[bubbapug1]

[Sergio Natali]

I believe that "keyholes" are often the result of unstable projectiles, but quite a wide number of factors can cause that instability. Most common is the incorrect twist or an injury to the muzzle. I've seen "keyholes" at the range in guns cleaned from the muzzle.
Also a small burr on the muzzle crown could make the bullets unstable in flight.
IMHO

[DavidJayUden]

I too suspect that the problem lies at the muzzle. Sometimes when guns are vigorously cleaned from the muzzle end with a steel rod we see accuracy suffer dramatically, like this. Check for wear (or other defects) near the muzzle, try diff. ammo. with different bullet weights, cast and jacketed. etc. Clean the barrel and shoot it until dirty.
Options iniclude re-barreling, or relining the existing barrel, a service offerred by the Broom Closet in Florida.
I suppose a guy could try counter-boring the muzzle a half-inch or so IF you have a lathe.
Or sell it off and pick up another.
dju

[rhuff]

This may be a long shot, but worth mentioning. Was your target backed up with a firm backing like cardboard, etc.? If the target was made of thin paper, and without backup, it will tear instead of punch as a response of being struck by the bullet, and give one the appearance of keyholing. Just a thought.

[Schutzenbob]

I'm more of a rifle shooter, but if that was my pistol I'd give it a careful cleaning, make a cerrosafe cast of the chamber, and then I'd slug the bore. Now...after you fire your pistol, what do the fired cases look like?

[Sieger]

Hi,

From what little I can see into your barrel, the rifling seems normal. If there is any inconsistency in the crown, due to platting materials, etc., this is where I'd start looking first.

Sieger

[bubbapug1]

I gave the barrel a good scrubbing with a brass brush and some hoppes. I had taken the gun to the range right after picking it up at the store.

The WWB ammo worked great, same for some Bitter valley 9mm, and some Milwall Hollow points. My own reloads are still tumbling, and I suspect they are a bit hotter even though they are below minimum for red dot. I am using extreme plated bullets, and all the ammo that worked was FMJ except the HP's but they too had brass jackets.

I am going to down load some cases and try the extremes in some reloads to see if I can get my own reloads to work. I also will chrony my loads and the WWB loads, and try to find out the exact powder used in the WWB, but I would imagine its 231.

Thanks for the advice.

P.S. I was amazed at how light and crisp the Luger trigger is, and how well the gun handles recoil. Its also accurate, but I am not a great fan of the front sight post in low light you get at many indoor ranges.

[DavidJayUden]

We feel your pain. Remember that those front sights were intended for 18 year olds...A dab of florescent orange paint helps a bit.
Keep us posted on the tumbling issue. I'm currently using cast bullets or FMJ, never tried plated.
dju

[bob2ovi]

A number of things come to mind. First, since the factory ammo works, I'd check the bullets you are re-loading with for weight and diameter. I have found that the re-loading info from Seiger's posts to be excellent. My guns all work with 5.4 to 5.6 gr. of IMR 4756. Very accurate.....Next , I'd slug the bore full length, then 1/2 inch into the breech and then again 1/2 inch into the muzzle and compare your findings. If the muzzle dia. is more than than the breech you have a barrel issue....As for sights, I use a fire optic sight for in door shooting. Brownells has these for Mausers as well as wider higher metalic Mauser sights the Fiber optics are the right height and the metalics can be filed down and reshaped to suite. (The dove tail is the same.) Good luck with your shooting and stay safe when reloading.

[rhuff]

Originally Posted by bubbapug1

My own reloads are still tumbling, and I suspect they are a bit hotter even though they are below minimum for red dot. .

Did you mean to say that your loads are below MINIMUM load range for Red Dot, or below MAX load for Red Dot? If you are loading the below minimum loads, the bullets may not be stabilizing due to too low a velocity.

[bubbapug1]

My loads with red dot were at Maximum (4.3 grains). I went to 4.1 grains and the tumbling was lessened, but not by much.

All factory ammo works, as do reloads with 124 grain Zero FMJ bullets. I just have issues now with extreme plated bullets.

I also am going to try a bit slower powder than the red dot, like 231 or tru-blu since I have that in stock. I also loaded up some zero fmjs with the red dot.

The gun has great accuracy except with the plated. The plated bullets mic out fine, I have to think it has something to do with the plating material versus the jacket materials or perhaps the speed of the red dot as the reloads I tested with were loaded with 231.

Time will tell, but its a great excuse to go to the range more often.

The 4.1 red dot load can barely cycle my 1911's in 9mm.

[DavidJayUden]

I struggled for a couple of years trying to load cast bullets in a load that would function Lugers correctly. Lots of set-backs and failures, and lots of trips back and forth to the range.
My point is to hang in there, try different loads and components, and when you find one that works, stick with it.
dju