New 1918 Luger! Photos added.

livingthepast · 11-20-2003, 01:34 AM

Just received my newest addition. Its dated 1918 on the reciever, has had the toggle manufacture marking ground off, has been reblued, but looks like it was done years and years ago, has holster wear, is marked germany, has dwm military acceptance markings, is matching barrel, frame, slide, and various small pieces. The toggle is a complete mismatch and is made up of two different parts. The bluing looks like a dip job as the pins and the safety lever are blued. Heres the kicker. On the trigger guard facing the front of the pistol is a Heraldic Ealge stamped. It is a single headed ealge holding a sword in its right claw and a globe or round object in its left claw. Has me stumped. Also, with it being marked "Germany" I would think it was a commercial rework but it is barreled in 9mm with matching fonts on all the matching serial numbers. Your help and expertise would be greatly appreciated! Here are some photos, there are a couple of surface rust spots, but not bad, the photos make it look like pitting in the slide and on the toggle but there is none, just oil and blueing wear.

Thanks, Brian

Dwight Gruber · 11-20-2003, 02:03 AM

Brian,

The eagle on the front of the trigger guard is the Erfurt power-proof eagle. It shows up uncommonly on this position on P-08s, and on other German pistols occasionally as well.

The reason for this stamp in this position is unknown. Some advanced collectors opine that in this use it is a property mark.

--Dwight

Lugerdoc · 11-20-2003, 09:52 AM

The blank center toggle link is typical of BKIW guns assembled in 1929 using surplus WW1 parts and the former manufacturers markings ground off, since they infact did not assemble this gun. TH

John Sabato · 11-20-2003, 10:50 AM

CAUTION!! DO NOT SHOOT YOUR LUGER!! unless you want to damage it.

THE FORWARD TOGGLE JOINT PIN IS EITHER BROKEN OR A BAD REPLACEMENT.

The pin should be flush with both sides of the breechblock.

You need to get a replacement

Roadkill · 11-20-2003, 04:57 PM

Good observation, John. Looks like the head/flange has been worn off. Living thepast, will the pin go in/out from either side?

rk

livingthepast · 11-20-2003, 06:47 PM

Thanks for the great replys. The seller told me about the toggle pin needing to be replaced and the pistol also needs the parts 008 and 009 in the parts diagram. Basically the part that hangs down into the grip is missing as well as the pin that holds it in. Also missing is the breakdown lever just forward and above the left side trigger. I need to post on finding these parts on the parts wanted board. A couple of questions. If it is an Erfurt proof on the front of the tirggerguard does that mean it was a force match? I'm asking because I think the rights side of the slide is army proofed to dmw. Another thing and I'm showing my ignorance here is "BKIW guns assembled in 1929" ?? Could you tell me what this is or means? Finally why is it export marked but chambered for 9mm? Oh one more thing, did they dip blue these when made, as the reblue look quite old. Last thing. The grips are quite worn but are unnumbered on back with some type of waffenampt stamp on each one. An eagle with 3 numbers very small.

Thanks!!!!!!
Brian

Roadkill · 11-20-2003, 06:58 PM

Berlin-Karlsruher Industrie-Werke

rk

Dwight Gruber · 11-21-2003, 03:32 AM

"If it is an Erfurt proof on the front of the triggerguard does that mean it was a force match?"

The Erfurt proof stamp in this position has no documented meaning. From the photographs I see nothing to indicate the frame-to-receiver being a force match.

"I think the rights side of the slide is army proofed to dmw."

You are correct in your identification of the power-proof stamp belonging to the inspectors at the DWM factory.

"...I'm showing my ignorance here is 'BKIW guns assembled in 1929' ?? Could you tell me what this is or means?"

Don't worry about not having knowledge, we all started there. In 1922 the DWM company began to do business under the name Berlin-Karlsruher Industrie-Werke (BKIW). Although the DWM monogram continued to appear on the toggle link, P-08s continued to be manufactured by BKIW until the production equipment was transferred to the Mauser factory in 1930.

"Why is it export marked but chambered for 9mm?"

The variations of Lugers made available between the wars, particularly just after WWI, are nearly infinite. Conventional wisdom has it that Germany was so starved for currency that they put together anything they could into functioning pistols, export-marked them, and shipped them out (click this link for another very strange example). The 3 3/4-in, .30 cal. requirement was a result of the Treaty of Versailles, and applied to guns sold within Germany. These were exported too, but as newly-manufactured pieces.

"Oh one more thing, did they dip blue these when made, as the reblue look quite old."

A differentiation needs to be made between salt-blue, a chemical-immersion bluing process used for Mauser-produced P-08 beginning 1937; and dip-blue, a black coating process used by the East Germans and Russians on Lugers captured at the end of WWII (the original finish on pre-1937 Lugers is rust blue). From your photos it is easiest to suspect that this Luger has been salt-blued--the interior of the pistol is blue, not polished--indicating that it was probably re-blued after it left Germany.

"Last thing. The grips are quite worn but are unnumbered on back with some type of waffenampt stamp on each one. An eagle with 3 numbers very small."

Photos of these grip stamps will prove very interesting, as they may provide a solid clue as to their origin and possibly help fix your Luger in time.

-Dwight

Doubs · 11-22-2003, 02:30 AM

Dwight, the frame in the first picture looks too square in profile where the serial number is stamped and the second picture also makes it appear that the front of the frame has been "faced". The transition from the trigger guard to the front of the frame should be more fluid and not quite so abrupt. It may be the lighting but I'd want to examine the actual gun before saying the upper and lower parts aren't from different guns. Just my opinion.

Dwight Gruber · 11-22-2003, 12:26 PM

Brian,

If you take more pictures of this gun, in addition to the inside of the grip panels, please show us pictures of the front of the frame with the toggle closed and the receiver "in battery". This will help illustrate Doubs's observation.

--Dwight

livingthepast · 11-24-2003, 12:06 AM

Here are some more, I apologize for my camera. The waffen proofs on the rear of the grips are numbered 635 to the best of my vision. They are both in the same area of the grip about a 1/4 of the way above the grip screw. I've looked close and compared the forward area side by side to my mismatched comercial and it appears to have not been ground or changed in anyway. They match pretty close. The numbers on the frame, slide and barrel all have the same fonts with the same characteristics, especially the 6. The only thing that differs is the L code is a bit different on the barrel, but could honestly be from a partial strike, but I'm not sure. I wish I could get clear photos of the serial numbers. Here are the photos:

As usual, thanks for the help!
Brian

11-20-2003, 01:34 AM	#1
livingthepast User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Georgia Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	New 1918 Luger! Photos added. Just received my newest addition. Its dated 1918 on the reciever, has had the toggle manufacture marking ground off, has been reblued, but looks like it was done years and years ago, has holster wear, is marked germany, has dwm military acceptance markings, is matching barrel, frame, slide, and various small pieces. The toggle is a complete mismatch and is made up of two different parts. The bluing looks like a dip job as the pins and the safety lever are blued. Heres the kicker. On the trigger guard facing the front of the pistol is a Heraldic Ealge stamped. It is a single headed ealge holding a sword in its right claw and a globe or round object in its left claw. Has me stumped. Also, with it being marked "Germany" I would think it was a commercial rework but it is barreled in 9mm with matching fonts on all the matching serial numbers. Your help and expertise would be greatly appreciated! Here are some photos, there are a couple of surface rust spots, but not bad, the photos make it look like pitting in the slide and on the toggle but there is none, just oil and blueing wear. Thanks, Brian

11-20-2003, 09:52 AM	#3
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	The blank center toggle link is typical of BKIW guns assembled in 1929 using surplus WW1 parts and the former manufacturers markings ground off, since they infact did not assemble this gun. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

11-20-2003, 10:50 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	CAUTION!! DO NOT SHOOT YOUR LUGER!! unless you want to damage it. THE FORWARD TOGGLE JOINT PIN IS EITHER BROKEN OR A BAD REPLACEMENT. The pin should be flush with both sides of the breechblock. You need to get a replacement __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

11-20-2003, 02:03 AM	#2
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,317 Times in 431 Posts	Brian, The eagle on the front of the trigger guard is the Erfurt power-proof eagle. It shows up uncommonly on this position on P-08s, and on other German pistols occasionally as well. The reason for this stamp in this position is unknown. Some advanced collectors opine that in this use it is a property mark. --Dwight

11-20-2003, 04:57 PM	#5
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Good observation, John. Looks like the head/flange has been worn off. Living thepast, will the pin go in/out from either side? rk

11-20-2003, 06:47 PM	#6
livingthepast User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Georgia Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks for the great replys. The seller told me about the toggle pin needing to be replaced and the pistol also needs the parts 008 and 009 in the parts diagram. Basically the part that hangs down into the grip is missing as well as the pin that holds it in. Also missing is the breakdown lever just forward and above the left side trigger. I need to post on finding these parts on the parts wanted board. A couple of questions. If it is an Erfurt proof on the front of the tirggerguard does that mean it was a force match? I'm asking because I think the rights side of the slide is army proofed to dmw. Another thing and I'm showing my ignorance here is "BKIW guns assembled in 1929" ?? Could you tell me what this is or means? Finally why is it export marked but chambered for 9mm? Oh one more thing, did they dip blue these when made, as the reblue look quite old. Last thing. The grips are quite worn but are unnumbered on back with some type of waffenampt stamp on each one. An eagle with 3 numbers very small. Thanks!!!!!! Brian

11-20-2003, 06:58 PM	#7
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	Berlin-Karlsruher Industrie-Werke rk

11-21-2003, 03:32 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,317 Times in 431 Posts	"If it is an Erfurt proof on the front of the triggerguard does that mean it was a force match?" The Erfurt proof stamp in this position has no documented meaning. From the photographs I see nothing to indicate the frame-to-receiver being a force match. "I think the rights side of the slide is army proofed to dmw." You are correct in your identification of the power-proof stamp belonging to the inspectors at the DWM factory. "...I'm showing my ignorance here is 'BKIW guns assembled in 1929' ?? Could you tell me what this is or means?" Don't worry about not having knowledge, we all started there. In 1922 the DWM company began to do business under the name Berlin-Karlsruher Industrie-Werke (BKIW). Although the DWM monogram continued to appear on the toggle link, P-08s continued to be manufactured by BKIW until the production equipment was transferred to the Mauser factory in 1930. "Why is it export marked but chambered for 9mm?" The variations of Lugers made available between the wars, particularly just after WWI, are nearly infinite. Conventional wisdom has it that Germany was so starved for currency that they put together anything they could into functioning pistols, export-marked them, and shipped them out (click this link for another very strange example). The 3 3/4-in, .30 cal. requirement was a result of the Treaty of Versailles, and applied to guns sold within Germany. These were exported too, but as newly-manufactured pieces. "Oh one more thing, did they dip blue these when made, as the reblue look quite old." A differentiation needs to be made between salt-blue, a chemical-immersion bluing process used for Mauser-produced P-08 beginning 1937; and dip-blue, a black coating process used by the East Germans and Russians on Lugers captured at the end of WWII (the original finish on pre-1937 Lugers is rust blue). From your photos it is easiest to suspect that this Luger has been salt-blued--the interior of the pistol is blue, not polished--indicating that it was probably re-blued after it left Germany. "Last thing. The grips are quite worn but are unnumbered on back with some type of waffenampt stamp on each one. An eagle with 3 numbers very small." Photos of these grip stamps will prove very interesting, as they may provide a solid clue as to their origin and possibly help fix your Luger in time. -Dwight

11-22-2003, 02:30 AM	#9
Doubs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Byron, Georgia Posts: 1,697 Thanks: 792 Thanked 1,684 Times in 553 Posts	Dwight, the frame in the first picture looks too square in profile where the serial number is stamped and the second picture also makes it appear that the front of the frame has been "faced". The transition from the trigger guard to the front of the frame should be more fluid and not quite so abrupt. It may be the lighting but I'd want to examine the actual gun before saying the upper and lower parts aren't from different guns. Just my opinion.

11-22-2003, 12:26 PM	#10
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,902 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,317 Times in 431 Posts	Brian, If you take more pictures of this gun, in addition to the inside of the grip panels, please show us pictures of the front of the frame with the toggle closed and the receiver "in battery". This will help illustrate Doubs's observation. --Dwight

11-24-2003, 12:06 AM	#11
livingthepast User Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Georgia Posts: 27 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here are some more, I apologize for my camera. The waffen proofs on the rear of the grips are numbered 635 to the best of my vision. They are both in the same area of the grip about a 1/4 of the way above the grip screw. I've looked close and compared the forward area side by side to my mismatched comercial and it appears to have not been ground or changed in anyway. They match pretty close. The numbers on the frame, slide and barrel all have the same fonts with the same characteristics, especially the 6. The only thing that differs is the L code is a bit different on the barrel, but could honestly be from a partial strike, but I'm not sure. I wish I could get clear photos of the serial numbers. Here are the photos: As usual, thanks for the help! Brian