Norinco 9mm - Page 2

Edward Tinker · 01-07-2010, 10:15 PM

PLAY NICE GENTLEMAN !!!!

You guys are all trying to help others; so no harm no foul, but lets be nice.

jonnyc · 01-08-2010, 06:12 AM

I searched for "Chinese" and "Chinese ammunition" and didn't see anything relevant. I did run across a good-many posts about others happily and safely using Norinco ammo, however. Please post a link.

alvin · 01-08-2010, 07:20 AM

On a local gun show, I saw a guy pushing a baby stroller with two rifles on it for sale. One was a Chinese made SKS. I was looking at an ammo table and he happened standing next to me. Another young man was interested in the SKS, obviously a newbie. The seller was not good on talking and he introduced almost nothing. The ammo table owner was more business oriented sales guy, it's not his business, but he somehow was excited, and said many good words on Norinco product in general, and on this SKS in particular.

Looks like the buyer was not very happy on the asking price, he was shy and did not bargain, just put down the gun back on the stroller and about to walk away. I standed nearby and ask the seller "How much do you want on this SKS?"

It's so noisy in the hall, the seller did not hear what I asked. But the previous viewer heard that and he turned around quickly "I will take it"

Sieger · 01-08-2010, 03:42 PM

Jonnyc:

Please search the word "fork" and look at the fifth post where a 1917's fork broke apart in three pieces after shooting the Chinese stuff.

Sieger

jonnyc · 01-08-2010, 05:18 PM

OK, I'll try to be polite here, but that was truly a fascinating discussion.
1. The ammo in question there was some unknown Chinese 115 grain, the ammo in this thread is Norinco 124 grain, so there really is no relevance.
2. The final outcome of the discussion on how the Artillery blew up was that the "gunsmith" had used improper tools and heat treating, not an ammo issue at all.
3. The only poster who had anything to say about the "red hot +P++" ammo was...hmmm...Sieger.
Now you have described this ammo as "+P at least, +P+, and +P++". I'm not even sure what +P++ is, but I don't think there's a SAAMI rating for that.
I will refrain from discussing this here anymore until I have chrono'd my 124 grain Norinco, the exact same stuff pictured above. I would suggest doing the same to avoid digging the hole any deeper.

Sieger · 01-08-2010, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonnyc

"2. The final outcome of the discussion on how the Artillery blew up was that the "gunsmith" had used improper tools and heat treating, not an ammo issue at all."

Really, there seems to be quite a lot of discussion regarding ammo and one little post regarding this "theory". Sorry! The original poster says that he had been using Winchester White Box sucessfully, but that on the second clip of the Chinese stuff, the fork cracked in three places. Let's be realistic here!

"3. The only poster who had anything to say about the "red hot +P++" ammo was...hmmm...Sieger.
Now you have described this ammo as "+P at least, +P+, and +P++". I'm not even sure what +P++ is, but I don't think there's a SAAMI rating for that."

I commented in the post, but surely wasn't the only one posting on the hot ammo issue. Please read the discussion again.

+P++ means stuff that will distroy a pistol, like the unidentified TZZ stuff that cracked the frame on my Dad's byf 43 P-38, or the Chinese stuff that broke the poster's fork in three places!!

+P+ means NATO standard ammo, 121 grains at 1260!

+P something less than that, but hotter than the original Luger ammo of 123 grains at 1076!

"I will refrain from discussing this here anymore until I have chrono'd my 124 grain Norinco, the exact same stuff pictured above."

I'll be in Florida next month and will test the blue and red box Norinco myself, but surely not through my Lugers.

" I would suggest doing the same to avoid digging the hole any deeper."

I agree, rather than definding something you are not sure about, let's get some facts!!!

Sieger

Mauser George · 01-08-2010, 10:29 PM

Sieger:

You asked me to provide evidence of 1400 fps for a 124 gr ammo. Yet you then state to believe you, none such evidence exist!

If you happen to own any reading material regarding Lugers, may I suggest that you do some research in this regard. You just may find what I said to be true as it is discussed in detail and is in black & white.

When I mentioned the specs on the Winchester USA Ammo in my posting, there is no propably(SP?) as you stated in your response. My information is from Winchester printed material as well was their internet site!

I would like to respectfully ask you where you ever came up with the information to make the following two statements?

1) Lugers are not designed to shoot hot ammo.
2) They usually will jam on the stuff. How so?

Regards,

George

Sieger · 01-09-2010, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mauser George

"You asked me to provide evidence of 1,400 fps for a 124 gr ammo. Yet you then state to believe you, none such evidence exist! If you happen to own any reading material regarding Lugers, may I suggest that you do some research in this regard. You just may find what I said to be true as it is discussed in detail and is in black & white. "

As you couldn't or wouldn't site your source for the 1,400 fps 124 gr German ammo, let me site my sources for the 1,076 fps 123 grain German ammo (which is specifically identified as Luger ammo) by the original manufactures and distributors themselves.

1) From "Die Pistole 08", Joachim Goertz, page 200, Muendungsgeschwindigkeit 327 m/sec. bei 100mm Lauflaenge.

2) From "Die Selbstlade Pistole Parabellum-Original Mauser", Mauser owners' manual of the late 1930s. Technische Merkmale, Geschossgeschwindigkeit 322 m/sec. (100mm Lauflaenge).

3) From "Die Selbstlade-Pistole Parabellum" DWM's pre WWI commercial owners' Manual, Anfangsgeschwindigkeit des Geschosses 310m/sec. bei 100mm Lauflaenge.

4) From "German Infantry Weapons", Donald McLean, 1966,
page 5, muzzle velocity 1,040 fps.

5) From "Pacific Arms Corporation", 1922, page 8, velocity at muzzle, 1,039 fps.

6) From "A. F. Stoeger, Inc., Catalog No 18", page 136, velocity at muzzle, 1,040 fps.

The hottest of the metric loads 327 m/sec is the 1,076 fps load I quote herein.

I've been studying the original Parabellum specs. for years and from various sources, both from the original manufactures and original distributors sources.

"When I mentioned the specs on the Winchester USA Ammo in my posting, there is no propably(SP?) as you stated in your response. My information is from Winchester printed material as well was their internet site!

Great!

I would like to respectfully ask you where you ever came up with the information to make the following two statements?

"1) Lugers are not designed to shoot hot ammo."

Please see my discussion of the original manufacturers and distributors specs. above.

"2) They usually will jam on the stuff. How so?"

I've been shooting Lugers for some 40 years and loading for them for some 30 years. If you load with medium burning rate powders (SR 4756 is excellent) at a velocity somewhat near the ones sited above, the pistols work beautifully and do not jam. Load them much hotter, and the springs get out of timing and the pistols will jam.

Regards,

George

Sieger

Mauser George · 01-09-2010, 08:32 AM

Sieger:

This thread regarding 9mm Parabellum seems to be going in the wrong direction, as it appears you are more interested in arguing, and you and only you know all the facts.

It is for that reason that I am not going any further as I respect Ed Tinker as he has made his feeling known already regarding this thread and the direction it is heading.

What I said is correct and factual as it is in black and white as I indicated previously.

Good luck and the best in your Luger collecting.

Regards,

George
Upstate New York

Sieger · 01-09-2010, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mauser George

Sieger:

"This thread regarding 9mm Parabellum seems to be going in the wrong direction, as it appears you are more interested in arguing, and you and only you know all the facts."

I have sited original sources on the subject (in black and white). So far, you haven't sited anything, though you claim that there is a source. We are not arguing. I'm trying to set the record straight regarding the myth of the "hot load" requirement. I have sited my sources, please site yours.

"It is for that reason that I am not going any further as I respect Ed Tinker as he has made his feeling known already regarding this thread and the direction it is heading."

When faced with facts, no argument exists for the "hot load" theory. If there are facts to the contrary, I'd be perfectly willing to read them and discuss them with anyone.

"What I said is correct and factual as it is in black and white as I indicated previously."

I have asked for a site of your 1,400 fps 124 gr German load. You have not responded in "black and white" or otherwise. I think a reference to any of the modern widely published Reloading Guides will clearly show you that it is not possible to load a 124 gr. bullet, to 1,400 fps, in a 9mm Parabellum case, at any safe pressure level. In fact, it would be EXTREMELY DANGEROUS TO DO SO!

"Good luck and the best in your Luger collecting."

I have collected and shot Lugers for the last 30 years. It has been a very enjoyable and interesting hobby for me. Thank you for your best wishes!!

Regards,

George
Upstate New York

Have a pleasent and safe day, and I hope the weather, there, is better than it is here.

Sieger

Sieger · 01-09-2010, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Tinker

PLAY NICE GENTLEMAN !!!!

You guys are all trying to help others; so no harm no foul, but lets be nice.

Bismarck once said..."kind words cost nothing" This is often true.

Sieger

sheepherder · 01-09-2010, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sieger

Have a pleasent and safe day, and I hope the weather, there, is better than it is here.

Sieger

15ºF here today; 12 inches of snow on the ground.

Where's this "global warming" the alarmists are warning everyone about???

Our local weather station said that last year was the coldest in 50 years...and the year before was second coldest...

I think 2010 is going to be the new winner...

Sieger · 01-09-2010, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

15ºF here today; 12 inches of snow on the ground.

Where's this "global warming" the alarmists are warning everyone about???

Our local weather station said that last year was the coldest in 50 years...and the year before was second coldest...

I think 2010 is going to be the new winner...

Dear Postino

You know, the fellow in bed in your avatar must have shot some of that mythical 1,400 fps 124 grain German Army ammo through his Luger. Just look at what it has done to his hand, eyes and face. Ha!! By the way, the byline in German says "Will you be next?"

Here, in NYC, we are suppose to have a 0 degree Fahrenheit night. It's not that cold now, so I doubt it will get down that low.

Global Warming Theory, Ha!

Hope all is well there!!

Sieger

alvin · 01-09-2010, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by postino

Where's this "global warming" the alarmists are warning everyone about???

Heard of a country named "Tuvalu"? If not heard before, that's normal, it's not easy to find her on map.

People of Tuvalu said "All 6 billion people on Earth should applogize to us!" Why? global warming raises ocean level and the country submerges in water more frequently.

Today is Tuvalu, tommorrow will be New York.

Mauser George · 01-09-2010, 11:01 PM

Seiger:

Based on your recent posting, it seems that you are more interested in arguing, antagonizing and creating a conflict than anything else. Nice try though Bob.

Perhaps I would feel same if I resided at the bottom of the wonderful state of New York. Based on that fact and the gun control instituted by your neighbors, do you do even own any Lugers?

George

Vlim · 01-10-2010, 10:39 AM

Not wanting to throw oil on the fire here, but I can confirm that just about all sources I've come across mention the same velocities for the P08 / 9x19 para combo: about 320m/s.

I have some extensive ammunition test lists from the proof house in Ulm. They tested several brands of 9x19 para in the 1970s in order to come up with a suitable reference round for Mauser's post war production. When Mauser tested, they found the average v of modern ammo to be a tad higher (around 340 - 350m/s).

I've attached some test results from Mauser themselves, dating from around 1975, hope that helps:

Hersteller = Producer
Geschossgewichte = bullet weight in grams.
Geschosstype = bullet type (vollmantel = FMJ, Hohlspitzgeschoss = hollow point, panzerbrechend = armour piercing)

V measured with a 6" barrel, 5 meters away from the muzzle.

An additional report from the Mauser engineers:
b. Winchester, lot number 7658 DF 1.
The average gas pressure of these rounds is some 2177 bar and shows deviations of +124 / - 112 bar. This ammunition was used without problems and gave good results, undoubtedly because of the accurate production.

c. Norma, lot number 08915.
The average gas pressure of these rounds is some 2515 bar and shows deviations of +128 / -411 bar. The ammunition functions some 25% above user gas pressure and shoots very high as a result (highest sight needed)

d. Geco, lot number march 1971.
The average gas pressure of this round is some 1815 bar and shows deviations of +136 / -185. With this ammunition constant good results were had.

Interesting is that both Geco and Winchester produced a v of some 350 m/s on average and that, with much higher chamber pressures, Norma averaged at a lower v of some 344 m/s.

Vlim · 01-10-2010, 11:01 AM

Just for completeness sake, here is an interesting box of Geco 9x19 para from the 1980s. It was custom loaded for former NWM manager Henk Visser's personal use.

The V on the overlabel is given as 280 m/s, which is quite mild for P08 standards, as the commercial Geco is already a pretty mild round.

And some scans from a 1953 DDR manual on pistol and rifle rounds with v for the WW2 ammunition they were still using those days.

Sieger · 01-10-2010, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alvin

Heard of a country named "Tuvalu"? If not heard before, that's normal, it's not easy to find her on map.

People of Tuvalu said "All 6 billion people on Earth should applogize to us!" Why? global warming raises ocean level and the country submerges in water more frequently.

Today is Tuvalu, tommorrow will be New York.

Dear Alvin:

Actually, I'm quite "Green" and have been since the mid 70's. I feel that our environment is a precious comodity that should be preserved and protected

In my High School Earth Science class, in 1974, we were taught that the earth was entering into a new ice age, and that we, or more likely our children, would suffer from starvation due to low crop yeild. Adequate evidence was offered through a study of the ice layers at the North Pole.

The Germans have a much more interesting question for Al Gore to answer. If carbon emissions are causing our ice caps to melt, then why are the ice caps on Mars also melting at the same approximate rate (adjusted for its distance from the sun, etc.)? This study was done by the world famous Max Plank Institute in Berlin.

My personal, non-scientific, view is that the sun varies in its energy output over time. We seem to be in a period of higher energy output now. This would seem logical.

Sieger

jonnyc · 01-10-2010, 11:53 AM

Way too cold today for anything more scientific, but here are the results of my limited testing:

PRC 124 grain in an Argentine Hi-Power (20 rounds):
Hi 1184 fps
Low 1128 fps
Avg 1161 fps

Rem. 115 grain in an Argentine Hi-Power (10 rounds):
Hi 1122 fps
Low1079 fps
Avg 1097 fps

WWB 115 grain in a 1940 Luger (8 rounds):
Hi 1158 fps
Low 1085 fps
Avg 1127 fps

Like I said, not scientific, but indicative none-the-less. I would not call the PRC ammo +P, let alone +P+ or "red hot +P++". Use whatever you like, but nothing but foolishness to call the PRC ammo dangerous or over-loaded to dangerous pressures. In addition, a correct reading of the attached thread about the exploding Arty. Luger clearly indicates a poor "gunsmithing" job and not an ammunition problem.
I will continue to use WWB in my Lugers, as they function 100% with that, but I would not hesitate to use the PRC 124 grain FMJ in any of my 9mm pistols.
That's all I have to say on the issue, and I will not participate in any foolish pissing-match over this.
Can't wait for a bit of "Global Warming" to hit my neighborhood!

Sieger · 01-10-2010, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mauser George

Seiger:

Based on your recent posting, it seems that you are more interested in arguing, antagonizing and creating a conflict than anything else. Nice try though Bob.

Perhaps I would feel same if I resided at the bottom of the wonderful state of New York. Based on that fact and the gun control instituted by your neighbors, do you do even own any Lugers?

George

Dear George:

I'm still waiting for some proof of that 1,400 fps, 124 grain German Army load from you. As of yet, I have received nothing but insults.

Yes, I have quite a collection of Lugers ranging from a 1917 DWM to the later Mauser Parabellum recreations, if its any of your personal business.

I wished you a good day, but you seem to be having a bad one. I sure hope that I am not the cause of it.

Sieger

01-08-2010, 03:42 PM	#24
Sieger User Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 1,575 Thanks: 2,124 Thanked 400 Times in 249 Posts	Jonnyc: Please search the word "fork" and look at the fifth post where a 1917's fork broke apart in three pieces after shooting the Chinese stuff. Sieger Last edited by Sieger; 01-08-2010 at 09:47 PM.

01-10-2010, 10:39 AM	#36
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 3,880 Times in 1,186 Posts	Not wanting to throw oil on the fire here, but I can confirm that just about all sources I've come across mention the same velocities for the P08 / 9x19 para combo: about 320m/s. I have some extensive ammunition test lists from the proof house in Ulm. They tested several brands of 9x19 para in the 1970s in order to come up with a suitable reference round for Mauser's post war production. When Mauser tested, they found the average v of modern ammo to be a tad higher (around 340 - 350m/s). I've attached some test results from Mauser themselves, dating from around 1975, hope that helps: Hersteller = Producer Geschossgewichte = bullet weight in grams. Geschosstype = bullet type (vollmantel = FMJ, Hohlspitzgeschoss = hollow point, panzerbrechend = armour piercing) V measured with a 6" barrel, 5 meters away from the muzzle. An additional report from the Mauser engineers: b. Winchester, lot number 7658 DF 1. The average gas pressure of these rounds is some 2177 bar and shows deviations of +124 / - 112 bar. This ammunition was used without problems and gave good results, undoubtedly because of the accurate production. c. Norma, lot number 08915. The average gas pressure of these rounds is some 2515 bar and shows deviations of +128 / -411 bar. The ammunition functions some 25% above user gas pressure and shoots very high as a result (highest sight needed) d. Geco, lot number march 1971. The average gas pressure of this round is some 1815 bar and shows deviations of +136 / -185. With this ammunition constant good results were had. Interesting is that both Geco and Winchester produced a v of some 350 m/s on average and that, with much higher chamber pressures, Norma averaged at a lower v of some 344 m/s. Attached Images

01-10-2010, 11:01 AM	#37
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,034 Thanks: 1,019 Thanked 3,880 Times in 1,186 Posts	Just for completeness sake, here is an interesting box of Geco 9x19 para from the 1980s. It was custom loaded for former NWM manager Henk Visser's personal use. The V on the overlabel is given as 280 m/s, which is quite mild for P08 standards, as the commercial Geco is already a pretty mild round. And some scans from a 1953 DDR manual on pistol and rifle rounds with v for the WW2 ammunition they were still using those days. Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

01-07-2010, 10:15 PM	#21
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,910 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,501 Times in 2,077 Posts	PLAY NICE GENTLEMAN !!!! You guys are all trying to help others; so no harm no foul, but lets be nice.

01-08-2010, 06:12 AM	#22
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	I searched for "Chinese" and "Chinese ammunition" and didn't see anything relevant. I did run across a good-many posts about others happily and safely using Norinco ammo, however. Please post a link.

01-08-2010, 07:20 AM	#23
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	On a local gun show, I saw a guy pushing a baby stroller with two rifles on it for sale. One was a Chinese made SKS. I was looking at an ammo table and he happened standing next to me. Another young man was interested in the SKS, obviously a newbie. The seller was not good on talking and he introduced almost nothing. The ammo table owner was more business oriented sales guy, it's not his business, but he somehow was excited, and said many good words on Norinco product in general, and on this SKS in particular. Looks like the buyer was not very happy on the asking price, he was shy and did not bargain, just put down the gun back on the stroller and about to walk away. I standed nearby and ask the seller "How much do you want on this SKS?" It's so noisy in the hall, the seller did not hear what I asked. But the previous viewer heard that and he turned around quickly "I will take it"

01-08-2010, 05:18 PM	#25
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	OK, I'll try to be polite here, but that was truly a fascinating discussion. 1. The ammo in question there was some unknown Chinese 115 grain, the ammo in this thread is Norinco 124 grain, so there really is no relevance. 2. The final outcome of the discussion on how the Artillery blew up was that the "gunsmith" had used improper tools and heat treating, not an ammo issue at all. 3. The only poster who had anything to say about the "red hot +P++" ammo was...hmmm...Sieger. Now you have described this ammo as "+P at least, +P+, and +P++". I'm not even sure what +P++ is, but I don't think there's a SAAMI rating for that. I will refrain from discussing this here anymore until I have chrono'd my 124 grain Norinco, the exact same stuff pictured above. I would suggest doing the same to avoid digging the hole any deeper.

01-08-2010, 10:29 PM	#27
Mauser George User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New York Posts: 88 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Sieger: You asked me to provide evidence of 1400 fps for a 124 gr ammo. Yet you then state to believe you, none such evidence exist! If you happen to own any reading material regarding Lugers, may I suggest that you do some research in this regard. You just may find what I said to be true as it is discussed in detail and is in black & white. When I mentioned the specs on the Winchester USA Ammo in my posting, there is no propably(SP?) as you stated in your response. My information is from Winchester printed material as well was their internet site! I would like to respectfully ask you where you ever came up with the information to make the following two statements? 1) Lugers are not designed to shoot hot ammo. 2) They usually will jam on the stuff. How so? Regards, George

01-09-2010, 08:32 AM	#29
Mauser George User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New York Posts: 88 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Sieger: This thread regarding 9mm Parabellum seems to be going in the wrong direction, as it appears you are more interested in arguing, and you and only you know all the facts. It is for that reason that I am not going any further as I respect Ed Tinker as he has made his feeling known already regarding this thread and the direction it is heading. What I said is correct and factual as it is in black and white as I indicated previously. Good luck and the best in your Luger collecting. Regards, George Upstate New York

01-09-2010, 11:01 PM	#35
Mauser George User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: New York Posts: 88 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Seiger: Based on your recent posting, it seems that you are more interested in arguing, antagonizing and creating a conflict than anything else. Nice try though Bob. Perhaps I would feel same if I resided at the bottom of the wonderful state of New York. Based on that fact and the gun control instituted by your neighbors, do you do even own any Lugers? George

01-10-2010, 11:53 AM	#39
jonnyc User Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 425 Thanks: 2 Thanked 46 Times in 34 Posts	Way too cold today for anything more scientific, but here are the results of my limited testing: PRC 124 grain in an Argentine Hi-Power (20 rounds): Hi 1184 fps Low 1128 fps Avg 1161 fps Rem. 115 grain in an Argentine Hi-Power (10 rounds): Hi 1122 fps Low1079 fps Avg 1097 fps WWB 115 grain in a 1940 Luger (8 rounds): Hi 1158 fps Low 1085 fps Avg 1127 fps Like I said, not scientific, but indicative none-the-less. I would not call the PRC ammo +P, let alone +P+ or "red hot +P++". Use whatever you like, but nothing but foolishness to call the PRC ammo dangerous or over-loaded to dangerous pressures. In addition, a correct reading of the attached thread about the exploding Arty. Luger clearly indicates a poor "gunsmithing" job and not an ammunition problem. I will continue to use WWB in my Lugers, as they function 100% with that, but I would not hesitate to use the PRC 124 grain FMJ in any of my 9mm pistols. That's all I have to say on the issue, and I will not participate in any foolish pissing-match over this. Can't wait for a bit of "Global Warming" to hit my neighborhood!