Hoping for some ID info

noping · 05-02-2005, 09:45 PM

Hello,

Just inhereted my Grandfather's Luger. He was in the 88th Quartermaster and saw action from Normandy to Ardennes. He picked up this Luger along the way. I'll post some more pictures, the quality of these is pretty poor, the camera battery is dying so the autofocus won't do its job.

The condition is great. Although it was in a bad shed for the past 6 months or so. All of the numbers (s/n 1823), including the clip, match. I still have his discharge papers showing he left the service with the Luger, clip and holster (I'll get to that, I think it is the most intriguing piece)

Here's a rundown of markings.

The toggle inscription is the Deutsche Waffenund Munitionsfabriker.

The barrel and left side of the chamber have the nitro stamp (upright).

The thumb saftey is on in the rear position.

The clip is aluminum with wooden plug. The s/n matches the Luger but is also marked with a "16"

Wood grips. squared and knurled toggle knobs.

The gripstrap is marked "L. Mi. 16."

Below the s/n on the barrel is a cursive "L" or "t". It looks almost like cherries.

On the frame just under the s/n on the front is a cursive "t"

The right side of the chamber has an eagle (the picture isn't great) over "W(?)A66" ? I can't tell if this is a really small "a", "2" or "z".

The proof mark on the barrel is well aligned and looks very clean coming to a point.

Now for the holster. I hope to get some pictures of it up tomorrow. It is a P38 holster (accorging to the stamp on the back) that has been heavily modified. The extra clip pouch was taken off. Between the belt loops on the back is an eagle over a swastika with a "920" stamped offset along the lower right of the swastika. And "cey" above a "4" just above the eagle. The flap has been cut down to a single strap. The closing strap has been moved from a diagonal to vertical. And on the cut down flap is an RAD hat insignia. The pin was taken off it was turned upside down and the ends of the wheat are run through two slits and bent in to hold it on.

Well that's about it, if you have anything else to ask, I'll try and answer and I'll try and get some better pictures up soon. THanks for any help you can give.

Edward Tinker · 05-02-2005, 09:55 PM

We would like to see pictures,

Welcome to the forum!

I collect stories like this, along with nice clear pictures, and will eventually publish a book or booklet...

The P38 holster, being modified has little collectable value, but is fun to have.

Does it have a sear safety? This would be a small dog-leg piece of metal above the trigger plate on the left side.

Is it marked with a date on the top of the receiver?

Ed

noping · 05-02-2005, 10:13 PM

I figured as much on the holster. I still think it is the most interesting part of it though. It tells us a lot more about the person who had the gun before my grandfather that the actual gun (well, so far at least).

No year. Based on a quick google search, yes, I believe it has a sear safety. Hmmm. I thought I did post the photos. letme try again.

Edward Tinker · 05-02-2005, 10:17 PM

Here is an example of a sear safety...

noping · 05-02-2005, 10:20 PM

Yup. I definitely have one of those.

Edward Tinker · 05-02-2005, 10:26 PM

Definately have one of those means it is a Police Luger. Probably a "commerical" or more commonly called Alphabet Luger, made during the 1920's for the weimar police (is what I collect btw).

The unit marking is police marking and stands for:

L. Mi. 16

L = Landjagerei (rural constalbury)

Mi = Minden

16 = weapon number 16

noping · 05-02-2005, 11:10 PM

Very cool. So, a police officer and a member of the RAD. It does have the Nitro commercial stamp.

noping · 05-02-2005, 11:12 PM

And if the Luger is that old, which is very surprising to me, it would mean he picked up the hoslter much later.

Edward Tinker · 05-02-2005, 11:21 PM

Not always...

Weapons were turned in, or maybe the holster he had was trashed and he traded or grabbed another holster. A p38 and P08 holster look alike, and if they grabbed one from a pile, he grabbed the wrong one?

And remember that those lugers were last made in 1945, that is a long time ago too...

CORRECTION; what I meant to say, was that LUGERS, all of them were made prior to 1945, not this gun...

Ed

noping · 05-02-2005, 11:32 PM

Oh, I misunderstood you. I though you were saying that this one was made in the '20s. I knew the Nitro stamp put it post 1920. I've always assumed it was a later model based on my grandfather's stories. It was taken from a dead officer, my Grandfather had the whole uniform but didn't make it back to the States with it, someone swiped it. He still has some insignias somewhere and the only other thing besides notes from Nazi occupied France, Holland and Belgium that know about is the overcoat belt-buckle. Which I also have. Aluminum, "Gott Mit Uns, and the leather tab with a 1939 stamp in it. Photos are in transit.

noping · 05-02-2005, 11:33 PM

Well, he may have grabbed the wrong holster but he went through a lot of effort to make just so. I'd lean toward the worn out holster. Although he kept the rest in great shape, still with a matching clip and all.

Edward Tinker · 05-03-2005, 09:17 AM

So, I may repeat myself, but some further info;

The Crown N on the top is a commercial marking, yours is a BKIW-Mauser Transitional DWM Luger from the late-1920's, would have to check my Weimar Lugers book to get a better approx date, plus see a clear picture of the suffix on the front fo the frame. The WaA66 is also from that time period, pistol was commerical, then taken / bought for police, but the military accepted it on the right.

At some point it received a Sear Safety and a magazine safety (post 1933), so was used by weimar police, then nazi police.

No offense to your grandfather, may or may not have been an officer. All the nazi uniforms looked like officer uniforms to many GI's.

I have a modified holster for a police pistol I have too, it is cool. Many holsters were modified by GI's after capture.

BTW, see note above, your pistol was made in the 1920's...

I would love to see pictures of the assorted items that came with this. And are you interested in having this placed in my book?

Ed

SteveM · 05-03-2005, 07:09 PM

Looks like you have a 29 DWM(1933 Sneak) as evidenced by the WaA66 on the right receiver. The suffix of the serial number is probably an s,t,u or possibly an r. It also has/had a mag safety that looks to be intact.

Post more pics if you can

SteveM

Don M · 05-03-2005, 07:28 PM

Zach,
Assuming the suffix is a "t", your Luger was manufactured by Berlin Karlsruher Industrie- Werke AG, the successor of Deutsche Waffen- und Fabriken AG in 1929. It was part of an order of about 9,000 P.08s for the LandjÃ?Â¤gerei, the rural constabulary in Prussia. This was a major rearming of this police force which, formerly, had been armed largely with 7.65-mm Mauser M1914 pocket pistols.

It sounds as if the P38 holster was modified in the police style (up strap), so it is possible this rig was captured from a police officer, rather than a member of the Wehrmacht.

Edward Tinker · 05-03-2005, 10:06 PM

Yes, probably a sneak, a serial number and suffix would help us

ed

noping · 05-04-2005, 12:13 AM

Hello all. Thanks for all the info. Very interesting stuff. I had a long day at work so didn't get out for new batteries for the camera. I'll try again tomorrow. Oops. Thought I did post the Serial number. It's 1823.

Ed.
I'd love for it to be in your book.

noping · 05-04-2005, 01:11 AM

"No offense to your grandfather, may or may not have been an officer. All the nazi uniforms looked like officer uniforms to many GI's."

Point taken. Although it issomething he has insisted since as long as I can remember. He did have the uniform for a few months before someone stole it. It's also possible he just melded a couple of stories together so the uniform and once separate became one.

"I have a modified holster for a police pistol I have too, it is cool. Many holsters were modified by GI's after capture."

I think the only thing he did was scratch a star onto it. Not positive he did it but it's there.

Also, how would the picture emerging so far fit with the RAD insignia on the holster? Any ideas?

George Anderson · 05-04-2005, 08:37 AM

The RAD insignia was put on it after German service, probably by a GI, if not some kid back in the States.

Edward Tinker · 05-04-2005, 09:30 AM

Zach, it is also very possible the luger was taken from an officer, many senior officers carried smaller guns, but many officers also carried lugers and p38's, especially if going into battle.

ed

noping · 05-04-2005, 10:58 AM

Hmm. I don't think he put it on there. It's not really like him. I'll ask next time I talk to him. It also definitely looks like it has been on there for a very long time.

Also, I just remembered, most intriguing of all, I know he has a telegram in German somewhere. I wonder if he got it off the same person? It'll have to sit for a while though, I don';t know the next time I'll be down there to try and find it.

05-02-2005, 09:45 PM	#1
noping User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hoping for some ID info Hello, Just inhereted my Grandfather's Luger. He was in the 88th Quartermaster and saw action from Normandy to Ardennes. He picked up this Luger along the way. I'll post some more pictures, the quality of these is pretty poor, the camera battery is dying so the autofocus won't do its job. The condition is great. Although it was in a bad shed for the past 6 months or so. All of the numbers (s/n 1823), including the clip, match. I still have his discharge papers showing he left the service with the Luger, clip and holster (I'll get to that, I think it is the most intriguing piece) Here's a rundown of markings. The toggle inscription is the Deutsche Waffenund Munitionsfabriker. The barrel and left side of the chamber have the nitro stamp (upright). The thumb saftey is on in the rear position. The clip is aluminum with wooden plug. The s/n matches the Luger but is also marked with a "16" Wood grips. squared and knurled toggle knobs. The gripstrap is marked "L. Mi. 16." Below the s/n on the barrel is a cursive "L" or "t". It looks almost like cherries. On the frame just under the s/n on the front is a cursive "t" The right side of the chamber has an eagle (the picture isn't great) over "W(?)A66" ? I can't tell if this is a really small "a", "2" or "z". The proof mark on the barrel is well aligned and looks very clean coming to a point. Now for the holster. I hope to get some pictures of it up tomorrow. It is a P38 holster (accorging to the stamp on the back) that has been heavily modified. The extra clip pouch was taken off. Between the belt loops on the back is an eagle over a swastika with a "920" stamped offset along the lower right of the swastika. And "cey" above a "4" just above the eagle. The flap has been cut down to a single strap. The closing strap has been moved from a diagonal to vertical. And on the cut down flap is an RAD hat insignia. The pin was taken off it was turned upside down and the ends of the wheat are run through two slits and bent in to hold it on. Well that's about it, if you have anything else to ask, I'll try and answer and I'll try and get some better pictures up soon. THanks for any help you can give.

05-02-2005, 09:55 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	We would like to see pictures, Welcome to the forum! I collect stories like this, along with nice clear pictures, and will eventually publish a book or booklet... The P38 holster, being modified has little collectable value, but is fun to have. Does it have a sear safety? This would be a small dog-leg piece of metal above the trigger plate on the left side. Is it marked with a date on the top of the receiver? Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-02-2005, 10:17 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Here is an example of a sear safety... Attached Thumbnails

05-02-2005, 10:26 PM	#6
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Definately have one of those means it is a Police Luger. Probably a "commerical" or more commonly called Alphabet Luger, made during the 1920's for the weimar police (is what I collect btw). The unit marking is police marking and stands for: L. Mi. 16 L = Landjagerei (rural constalbury) Mi = Minden 16 = weapon number 16 __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

05-03-2005, 07:28 PM	#14
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	Zach, Assuming the suffix is a "t", your Luger was manufactured by Berlin Karlsruher Industrie- Werke AG, the successor of Deutsche Waffen- und Fabriken AG in 1929. It was part of an order of about 9,000 P.08s for the LandjÃ?Â¤gerei, the rural constabulary in Prussia. This was a major rearming of this police force which, formerly, had been armed largely with 7.65-mm Mauser M1914 pocket pistols. It sounds as if the P38 holster was modified in the police style (up strap), so it is possible this rig was captured from a police officer, rather than a member of the Wehrmacht. __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

05-02-2005, 10:13 PM	#3
noping User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I figured as much on the holster. I still think it is the most interesting part of it though. It tells us a lot more about the person who had the gun before my grandfather that the actual gun (well, so far at least). No year. Based on a quick google search, yes, I believe it has a sear safety. Hmmm. I thought I did post the photos. letme try again.

05-02-2005, 10:20 PM	#5
noping User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Yup. I definitely have one of those.

05-02-2005, 11:10 PM	#7
noping User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Very cool. So, a police officer and a member of the RAD. It does have the Nitro commercial stamp.

05-02-2005, 11:12 PM	#8
noping User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	And if the Luger is that old, which is very surprising to me, it would mean he picked up the hoslter much later.

05-02-2005, 11:21 PM	#9
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Not always... Weapons were turned in, or maybe the holster he had was trashed and he traded or grabbed another holster. A p38 and P08 holster look alike, and if they grabbed one from a pile, he grabbed the wrong one? And remember that those lugers were last made in 1945, that is a long time ago too... CORRECTION; what I meant to say, was that LUGERS, all of them were made prior to 1945, not this gun... Ed

05-02-2005, 11:32 PM	#10
noping User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Oh, I misunderstood you. I though you were saying that this one was made in the '20s. I knew the Nitro stamp put it post 1920. I've always assumed it was a later model based on my grandfather's stories. It was taken from a dead officer, my Grandfather had the whole uniform but didn't make it back to the States with it, someone swiped it. He still has some insignias somewhere and the only other thing besides notes from Nazi occupied France, Holland and Belgium that know about is the overcoat belt-buckle. Which I also have. Aluminum, "Gott Mit Uns, and the leather tab with a 1939 stamp in it. Photos are in transit.

05-02-2005, 11:33 PM	#11
noping User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Well, he may have grabbed the wrong holster but he went through a lot of effort to make just so. I'd lean toward the worn out holster. Although he kept the rest in great shape, still with a matching clip and all.

05-03-2005, 09:17 AM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	So, I may repeat myself, but some further info; The Crown N on the top is a commercial marking, yours is a BKIW-Mauser Transitional DWM Luger from the late-1920's, would have to check my Weimar Lugers book to get a better approx date, plus see a clear picture of the suffix on the front fo the frame. The WaA66 is also from that time period, pistol was commerical, then taken / bought for police, but the military accepted it on the right. At some point it received a Sear Safety and a magazine safety (post 1933), so was used by weimar police, then nazi police. No offense to your grandfather, may or may not have been an officer. All the nazi uniforms looked like officer uniforms to many GI's. I have a modified holster for a police pistol I have too, it is cool. Many holsters were modified by GI's after capture. BTW, see note above, your pistol was made in the 1920's... I would love to see pictures of the assorted items that came with this. And are you interested in having this placed in my book? Ed

05-03-2005, 07:09 PM	#13
SteveM User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Texas Posts: 1,016 Thanks: 94 Thanked 275 Times in 137 Posts	Looks like you have a 29 DWM(1933 Sneak) as evidenced by the WaA66 on the right receiver. The suffix of the serial number is probably an s,t,u or possibly an r. It also has/had a mag safety that looks to be intact. Post more pics if you can SteveM

05-03-2005, 10:06 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Yes, probably a sneak, a serial number and suffix would help us ed

05-04-2005, 12:13 AM	#16
noping User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hello all. Thanks for all the info. Very interesting stuff. I had a long day at work so didn't get out for new batteries for the camera. I'll try again tomorrow. Oops. Thought I did post the Serial number. It's 1823. Ed. I'd love for it to be in your book.

05-04-2005, 01:11 AM	#17
noping User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	"No offense to your grandfather, may or may not have been an officer. All the nazi uniforms looked like officer uniforms to many GI's." Point taken. Although it issomething he has insisted since as long as I can remember. He did have the uniform for a few months before someone stole it. It's also possible he just melded a couple of stories together so the uniform and once separate became one. "I have a modified holster for a police pistol I have too, it is cool. Many holsters were modified by GI's after capture." I think the only thing he did was scratch a star onto it. Not positive he did it but it's there. Also, how would the picture emerging so far fit with the RAD insignia on the holster? Any ideas?

05-04-2005, 08:37 AM	#18
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,772 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	The RAD insignia was put on it after German service, probably by a GI, if not some kid back in the States.

05-04-2005, 09:30 AM	#19
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,911 Thanks: 1,987 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	Zach, it is also very possible the luger was taken from an officer, many senior officers carried smaller guns, but many officers also carried lugers and p38's, especially if going into battle. ed

05-04-2005, 10:58 AM	#20
noping User Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hmm. I don't think he put it on there. It's not really like him. I'll ask next time I talk to him. It also definitely looks like it has been on there for a very long time. Also, I just remembered, most intriguing of all, I know he has a telegram in German somewhere. I wonder if he got it off the same person? It'll have to sit for a while though, I don';t know the next time I'll be down there to try and find it.