1908 Fake Navy?

Kursk43 · 01-14-2013, 09:26 PM

I noticed a 1908 Navy for sale by a dealer who does not specialize in Lugers. It appears to be a minty example. However, it has the "floating crown" proofs which we have often seen on the 1916 and 1917 navies made in the northern US. Have any of you seen other fake 1908's? This is new to me. I hesitate to give the name of the dealer for the same reason that no one on this site wants to mention the person who manufactures these fakes though we all know who he is. Seems to me it would be harder to fake a long frame Navy.

sheepherder · 01-14-2013, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kursk43

I hesitate to give the name of the dealer for the same reason that no one on this site wants to mention the person who manufactures these fakes though we all know who he is.

Not all of us know who he is.

Norme · 01-14-2013, 09:49 PM

Hi Nick, If you know the serial number, I may be able to help you. I have a record of all known faked 1908 Navies.
There are three unique features that identify 1908 Navies:
1/ As you mentioned, long frame.
2/ Serial number in the range 1000b to aprox 9000b.
3/ Large flange rear toggle axle.
The gun you refer to may be genuine, but restored and re-stamped.
Regards, Norm

Kursk43 · 01-14-2013, 10:15 PM

Norm, you may be exactly right. Gun does look restored. Number is 1112b, correct serial range. Everything else looks good, just too nice for being about 100 years old.

Norme · 01-14-2013, 10:33 PM

Hi Nick, 1908 Navy #1112b is a known gun, and has as I suggested, undergone a complete professional restoration. The first photo was taken before, the second as the gun is now.
Regards, Norm

Kursk43 · 01-14-2013, 10:41 PM

Mystery solved! Great restoration. Thanks much, Norm.

cirelaw · 01-15-2013, 08:02 AM

Nice conclusion!

sheepherder · 01-15-2013, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Nick, 1908 Navy #1112b is a known gun, and has as I suggested, undergone a complete professional restoration.

Norm - Can you tell us who did the restoration???

Norme · 01-15-2013, 02:54 PM

Hi Rich, I don't know who did the restoration, apart from a few small errors, it's near perfect. The gun is currently listed by a dealer who specializes in expensive sporting arms, shotguns and rifles mostly. I contacted him a few months ago to tell him that the gun has been restored, but he's in denial.
Regards, Norm

Douglas Jr. · 01-16-2013, 07:09 AM

I remember when this Luger was brought to attention to the Jan Still forum members some months ago. In my opinion, this event was the ultimate proof about how important Norm's work is as well as all the other lists kindly shared by other forum members.

Douglas

John Sabato · 01-16-2013, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norme

Hi Nick, 1908 Navy #1112b is a known gun, and has as I suggested, undergone a complete professional restoration. The first photo was taken before, the second as the gun is now.
Regards, Norm

I am sorry, but I will have to disagree, sort of... if this is the "SAME" gun in these two photos, then the gun must have been completely restamped during the restoration process... How can you tell?

Look at the spacing between the two "M" marks on the unrestored gun, and then the same spacing on the restored gun... the spacing (and the orientation) of the M's does NOT appear to be the same in both photos.

In answer to Rich's question about who did the restoration? I can only tell you that I know that Thor (Ted Green) did not restore a Luger with a serial number of 1112b. Ted has kindly allowed me to access his restoration records... my access includes only pistol descriptions, and serial numbers and includes no personal information about the owners.

Norme · 01-16-2013, 02:02 PM

Hi John, This gun was taken down to bare, un-pitted metal during restoration, and was re-stamped. The restorer mistakenly used the early, three lobed Crown/M stamp, instead of the later, pentagon shaped, Crown/M stamp, which would be proper on a 1908 Navy. The early stamp was discontinued at about 1906 Navy #5000a. The first picture shows the early stamp on a 1906 Navy, the second, the proper stamp on a 1908.
Regards, Norm

John Sabato · 01-16-2013, 03:13 PM

Norm, Thanks for the clarification... had you not provided this info, it would be easy to presume that it was two different pistols.

01-14-2013, 10:15 PM	#4
Kursk43 User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Fake Navy? Norm, you may be exactly right. Gun does look restored. Number is 1112b, correct serial range. Everything else looks good, just too nice for being about 100 years old.

01-14-2013, 10:41 PM	#6
Kursk43 User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	Restored Navy Mystery solved! Great restoration. Thanks much, Norm.

01-16-2013, 02:02 PM	#12
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi John, This gun was taken down to bare, un-pitted metal during restoration, and was re-stamped. The restorer mistakenly used the early, three lobed Crown/M stamp, instead of the later, pentagon shaped, Crown/M stamp, which would be proper on a 1908 Navy. The early stamp was discontinued at about 1906 Navy #5000a. The first picture shows the early stamp on a 1906 Navy, the second, the proper stamp on a 1908. Regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails

01-16-2013, 03:13 PM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Norm, Thanks for the clarification... had you not provided this info, it would be easy to presume that it was two different pistols. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-14-2013, 09:26 PM	#1
Kursk43 User Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 6 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	1908 Fake Navy? I noticed a 1908 Navy for sale by a dealer who does not specialize in Lugers. It appears to be a minty example. However, it has the "floating crown" proofs which we have often seen on the 1916 and 1917 navies made in the northern US. Have any of you seen other fake 1908's? This is new to me. I hesitate to give the name of the dealer for the same reason that no one on this site wants to mention the person who manufactures these fakes though we all know who he is. Seems to me it would be harder to fake a long frame Navy.

01-14-2013, 09:49 PM	#3
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Nick, If you know the serial number, I may be able to help you. I have a record of all known faked 1908 Navies. There are three unique features that identify 1908 Navies: 1/ As you mentioned, long frame. 2/ Serial number in the range 1000b to aprox 9000b. 3/ Large flange rear toggle axle. The gun you refer to may be genuine, but restored and re-stamped. Regards, Norm

01-14-2013, 10:33 PM	#5
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Nick, 1908 Navy #1112b is a known gun, and has as I suggested, undergone a complete professional restoration. The first photo was taken before, the second as the gun is now. Regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

01-15-2013, 08:02 AM	#7
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Nice conclusion!

01-15-2013, 02:54 PM	#9
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Rich, I don't know who did the restoration, apart from a few small errors, it's near perfect. The gun is currently listed by a dealer who specializes in expensive sporting arms, shotguns and rifles mostly. I contacted him a few months ago to tell him that the gun has been restored, but he's in denial. Regards, Norm

01-16-2013, 07:09 AM	#10
Douglas Jr. User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: South America Posts: 948 Thanks: 598 Thanked 584 Times in 254 Posts	I remember when this Luger was brought to attention to the Jan Still forum members some months ago. In my opinion, this event was the ultimate proof about how important Norm's work is as well as all the other lists kindly shared by other forum members. Douglas