Fleur de Lys marked lugers - Page 2

alanint · 03-14-2011, 11:27 AM

John,

It appears that the very end of the "Hook" mates with the stock lug on the gun. This allows you to fully grasp the pistol's grips while still having the benefit of the stock. This is a bit like modern "Thumbhole" stocks. I'm betting there is a small lock button on the opposite side of the hook's end.
My comments on the leather patch were merely to point out its extraordinary and in my mind, suspect condition, not to disparage the guns themselves.

saab-bob · 03-14-2011, 02:15 PM

Doc

I was also at the Reno Gun show this weekend.My first one!
It was great.

While I am not a luger expert,I did look at these guns. They are beautiful. The machine work on the stock attachment was amazing. The edges on the guns are very sharp. If these are modern day forgeries,they are amazing.

Bob

awesome · 03-14-2011, 02:23 PM

Wow!
was the first impression on seeing this pair. And now it's pretty much the same.
Personally I don't have enough knowledge to decide whether these are originals or not, and that isn't my intention here. I only want to give my opinion on a matter here and want to let you know that there is some unlogical thinking here.
First, I also think that there is an "i" in St Etienne, especially than you compare the t with a smaller one in St.
Second, why would the markings StEtienne be a problem? As was said in a first post, this pair was probably custom creation for someone. If I would be ordering such extraordinary weapon I would probably ask for special markings as well. As probably all of you in this forum know, the Holland&Holland even make whole new caliber 700 NE, based on order from single man with enough money and persuation skills.
In addition to this, I think that the main question is not whether the markings are original, but whether the guns are original.
Third, it is obvious that the case is old and probably original but INTERIOR of the case obvious is not that old. Ii is too good, to scratchless and too spotless to be the same age as the case which had signs of wearing. But such a pair of guns deserve as good bedding as possible and I dont think that it is wrong but wright to keep the guns in good condition.
The last, if no one is interesting I give my ORIGINAL byf 42, and whole my colections of 15 other guns for this pair, no matter if they are fakes.
IMHO

George Anderson · 03-14-2011, 03:34 PM

This is a very interesting set. If I collected commercial or contract Lugers I would not go near this pair. As Doug(alanint) pointed out, the case label is of amateurish and obvious recent manufacture. It would also pay to examine the interior of the case versus the interior closing edges of the lid; the interior is new, fresh and clean as a baby's ass. The leatherette edges of the lid show considerable age and wear from use. I would be willing to bet that the case started out life as a flat ware case or perhaps a wind instrument case, perhaps a flute.

Years ago Doug Smith and I were at the same gun show. While trolling the aisles I saw a beautifull cased 1900 or 1906 Parabellum. The pistol was marked "Holland & Holland - London" as was the perfectly fitted case. I asked Doug to take a look at it; I had no doubt that the pistol was boosted but felt that the case was 100% correct. Doug laughed at me about the gun but could not explain the beautiful case.

I have been a life-long bird hunter and was given my first side-by-side, a cased Cogswell & Harrison, for my twelfth birthday by my grandfather...I know cased English guns and the Holland & Holland pistol case was 100% original in my mind. The case, gently aged exterior leather, oak structure and original interior label just continued to nag at me.

A few days after I got back home from the show I was leafing through my latest copy of "Double Gun Journal" on one of the last pages was a full page add by a high end dealer for a great set of Holland & Holland double guns in original case and including a Holland & Holland shotgun shell case. That case, approximately 9"X9" was exactly what was used as the donor box for the bogus H&H Luger. A very skilled craftsmen had simply gutted and replaced the interior and used good aged green felt to finish it. Such felt can be easily obtained from any gaming casino in Nevada.

Donor material is crtitical to professional counterfeiting. The guy who modified the case for the set of pistols above needs to work on technique.

Ron Wood · 03-14-2011, 03:54 PM

I have no idea about the origin of the Lugers or stock. It is possible that they are a vanity item commissioned at the turn of the century. There were French custom gunsmiths that turned out elaborate engraving and possibly die stamped embellishments on all types of firearms. It is also possible that they were made much more recently.

The case is vintage but has either been retrofitted for the guns a la George's H&H case experience, or has been restored. It is not conceivable to me that the material could be that crisp given the wear on the opened edges of the case. The engraved metal fleur de lys on the interior of the case lid looks like a quite recent addition.

alanint · 03-14-2011, 04:24 PM

While revisiting the photo of the leather patch, I also noticed that on the lower, right lobe of the emblem you can faintly see the telltale signs where it was trimmed in small cuts with a nail scissors or similar. A factory produced item would have been stamped out with a dye.

This is not the old world quality one would expect from such a set.

Norme · 03-14-2011, 04:33 PM

I can't speak to the authenticity of the guns, but it's my understanding that no fleur de lis marked Lugers were produced by DWM. However, whoever fabricated this set did a beautiful job, they are superb! As to the fitted case, I can speak with some authority. George is quite correct, as I know from first hand experience. In the Antique and Estate Jewelry business, retrofitting the interiors of vintage jewelry boxes is commonplace. In fact there is a lively market for old boxes, particularly the very distinctive red and gold ones marked "Cartier". Regards, Norm

sheepherder · 03-14-2011, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vlim

Why would a company like 'Manufacture Francaise' or 'Manufrance' mark their cases with 'St Etienne' (the name of the town one of their outfits was located in)?

I read the carbine barrel inscription as "Manufacture Francaise d'Armes & Cuciss de Saint Etienne"...although the 'Cuciss' is a guess...(I don't know any French)...

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

It appears that the very end of the "Hook" mates with the stock lug on the gun. This allows you to fully grasp the pistol's grips while still having the benefit of the stock. This is a bit like modern "Thumbhole" stocks. I'm betting there is a small lock button on the opposite side of the hook's end.

I would agree with that...There is a curve to the 'hook' that looks like it woould be the same as a stock lug...

Ben M. · 03-14-2011, 06:49 PM

Postino,

It is Cycles. As in bicycles.

sheepherder · 03-14-2011, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben M.

Postino,

It is Cycles. As in bicycles.

Yeah!...That's it! (I told you I didn't know any French!)...

drbuster · 03-14-2011, 08:15 PM

Norm, thanks for the comment. It's mind blowing what you said about The Multinational Pistol. Nevertheless I understand the general caution out there and also Vlim's concern about the St. Etienne address. Why, if that's the case, the St. Etienne marking on the barrel top was not stamped "Paris"? There's so much that we see today, what with the expiration of many "old time" collectors, coming to market that is hard to explain as no verifiable records exist. All I can say is that anyone with experience who examines this set will see they are real from "A" to "Z". I appreciate Ron Wood's approach to this...he has an educated experienced open mind.

Norme · 03-14-2011, 09:08 PM

Hi Herb, To the best of my knowledge no "Fleur de Lis" Luger has been found in France so far, which is why some of us are so suspicious of this set. If, in fact, documentation exists tracing these guns back to "a French sportsman of means" it will be a first! The topic of the 'Fleur de Lis" comes up from time to time, most recently on the "other" forum, see link. Despite all that, I really like these guns, whoever made them. Best regards, Norm

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...t=fleur+de+lis

LugerVern · 03-14-2011, 09:13 PM

When we see a beautiful gun that has been customized, it is easy to get lost in that beauty.

Is it real? It depends on what we are trying to determine.

The case was obviously made years after the gun to enhance the sets overall appeal.

The guns look great until you examine the crest, we train ourselves to look for consistency and the crest simply does not have the same consistency as the rest of the gun, meaning that it was most likely " engraved sometime later" .

I have heard the phrase " roll die & stamped" used in conjunction with this gun and I do not believe this is correct.

A roll die or stamp used to make such deep impressions would have upset a great deal of metal and we just do not see this. Also there are signs that someone has tried to enhance the halos around the crest, too much of a good thing. The halos are inconsistent, they are not in the right locations.

A beautiful presentation set " YES" and anyone would be happy to own them.

Vern

Vlim · 03-15-2011, 07:43 AM

That said, ManuFrance did offer custom engravings for a few bucks extra.

drbuster · 03-15-2011, 09:25 AM

Vlim, you are indeed correct. Someone on the Forum earlier even posted photos from an early French catalog that offered several choices for chamber stampings. No Fleur de Lys was there, however, but the catalog was from 1906. Maybe a 1900 catalog offered this choice. Also, Lugervern, the crests are obviously roll died. Look closely, metal can be seen to be displaced. You aren't able to roll your finger over it but if you could, you can feel it very easily. Also note that an obvious halo can be seen around the stamping. Certain things must be taken on faith if one cannot have the pistols in hand.

Vlim · 03-15-2011, 11:47 AM

Hi,

The Luger pistol was not offered in any ManuFrance catalog before 1907. Which indicates that ManuFrance did not sell them before 1907.

cirelaw · 03-15-2011, 12:14 PM

Same in Kenyans page p107

Norme · 03-15-2011, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drbuster

Certain things must be taken on faith if one cannot have the pistols in hand.

You're too nice a guy, Herb. I lost my faith when I found that my 1917 Navy was a fake. Cynically yours, Norm

drbuster · 03-15-2011, 08:53 PM

Norm, when I say you must make decisions with gun in hand, I mean you must use all the painful learning experiences and use them to hopefully screen out the fakes on the spot. Fakes, as you know, can be almost impossible to tell from originals, that's one reason I waited so long to buy that 1917 Navy. It, in addition to having all the right requisites, was stamped GERMANY under the barrel. I assumed that a faker would not go to the trouble to add this stamping (???).

mrerick · 03-15-2011, 10:11 PM

After reading about the book "The Art of the Faker" on this forum, I found a used copy a few months ago and have been reading it.

It's focused on all types of faking. Art, antiques, etc... and discusses some of the psychology and motivation behind faking.

Clearly financial gain is usually one of the reasons the faker engages in their craft. But it's been found that it's often much more.

Some take pleasure in "besting" the expert. It's a dominant trait, often born in the frustration of not being a success in a field, then taking them for a "ride"...

Many are serious students of history with some finely developed skills. The faking is an outlet. These are usually the ones that border on obsession, and they often create the most difficult fakes to detect. I think the fakes we deal with are often the outlet of an obsessive and skilled frustrated person. Multiple skills lead to additional provenance like packaging, capture paper and more.

Of course it's just as likely that they take pleasure in being outright cheats...

Except for the assembly line style of faker (WaffenFabrik USA), the obsessive must pour more hours into their "craft" than it's often worth financially.

So, it looks like our only protection is the data we collect and share, and reliance on experience to judge the gun and not buy the story.

If we're "taken" and end up educated in the process, is it just "tuition" in the end after the emotions subside?

These are beautiful guns, even if they prove inauthentic.

Marc

03-14-2011, 02:15 PM	#22
saab-bob User Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: So Cal Posts: 459 Thanks: 774 Thanked 143 Times in 87 Posts	Doc I was also at the Reno Gun show this weekend.My first one! It was great. While I am not a luger expert,I did look at these guns. They are beautiful. The machine work on the stock attachment was amazing. The edges on the guns are very sharp. If these are modern day forgeries,they are amazing. Bob __________________ "I think,therefore I own guns"

03-14-2011, 03:54 PM	#25
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	I have no idea about the origin of the Lugers or stock. It is possible that they are a vanity item commissioned at the turn of the century. There were French custom gunsmiths that turned out elaborate engraving and possibly die stamped embellishments on all types of firearms. It is also possible that they were made much more recently. The case is vintage but has either been retrofitted for the guns a la George's H&H case experience, or has been restored. It is not conceivable to me that the material could be that crisp given the wear on the opened edges of the case. The engraved metal fleur de lys on the interior of the case lid looks like a quite recent addition. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-15-2011, 12:14 PM	#37
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	The 1906 Model Same in Kenyans page p107 Attached Thumbnails

03-15-2011, 10:11 PM	#40
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	After reading about the book "The Art of the Faker" on this forum, I found a used copy a few months ago and have been reading it. It's focused on all types of faking. Art, antiques, etc... and discusses some of the psychology and motivation behind faking. Clearly financial gain is usually one of the reasons the faker engages in their craft. But it's been found that it's often much more. Some take pleasure in "besting" the expert. It's a dominant trait, often born in the frustration of not being a success in a field, then taking them for a "ride"... Many are serious students of history with some finely developed skills. The faking is an outlet. These are usually the ones that border on obsession, and they often create the most difficult fakes to detect. I think the fakes we deal with are often the outlet of an obsessive and skilled frustrated person. Multiple skills lead to additional provenance like packaging, capture paper and more. Of course it's just as likely that they take pleasure in being outright cheats... Except for the assembly line style of faker (WaffenFabrik USA), the obsessive must pour more hours into their "craft" than it's often worth financially. So, it looks like our only protection is the data we collect and share, and reliance on experience to judge the gun and not buy the story. If we're "taken" and end up educated in the process, is it just "tuition" in the end after the emotions subside? These are beautiful guns, even if they prove inauthentic. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

03-14-2011, 11:27 AM	#21
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	John, It appears that the very end of the "Hook" mates with the stock lug on the gun. This allows you to fully grasp the pistol's grips while still having the benefit of the stock. This is a bit like modern "Thumbhole" stocks. I'm betting there is a small lock button on the opposite side of the hook's end. My comments on the leather patch were merely to point out its extraordinary and in my mind, suspect condition, not to disparage the guns themselves.

03-14-2011, 02:23 PM	#23
awesome User Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Pula, Croatia Posts: 10 Thanks: 2 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post	Wow! was the first impression on seeing this pair. And now it's pretty much the same. Personally I don't have enough knowledge to decide whether these are originals or not, and that isn't my intention here. I only want to give my opinion on a matter here and want to let you know that there is some unlogical thinking here. First, I also think that there is an "i" in St Etienne, especially than you compare the t with a smaller one in St. Second, why would the markings StEtienne be a problem? As was said in a first post, this pair was probably custom creation for someone. If I would be ordering such extraordinary weapon I would probably ask for special markings as well. As probably all of you in this forum know, the Holland&Holland even make whole new caliber 700 NE, based on order from single man with enough money and persuation skills. In addition to this, I think that the main question is not whether the markings are original, but whether the guns are original. Third, it is obvious that the case is old and probably original but INTERIOR of the case obvious is not that old. Ii is too good, to scratchless and too spotless to be the same age as the case which had signs of wearing. But such a pair of guns deserve as good bedding as possible and I dont think that it is wrong but wright to keep the guns in good condition. The last, if no one is interesting I give my ORIGINAL byf 42, and whole my colections of 15 other guns for this pair, no matter if they are fakes. IMHO

03-14-2011, 03:34 PM	#24
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	This is a very interesting set. If I collected commercial or contract Lugers I would not go near this pair. As Doug(alanint) pointed out, the case label is of amateurish and obvious recent manufacture. It would also pay to examine the interior of the case versus the interior closing edges of the lid; the interior is new, fresh and clean as a baby's ass. The leatherette edges of the lid show considerable age and wear from use. I would be willing to bet that the case started out life as a flat ware case or perhaps a wind instrument case, perhaps a flute. Years ago Doug Smith and I were at the same gun show. While trolling the aisles I saw a beautifull cased 1900 or 1906 Parabellum. The pistol was marked "Holland & Holland - London" as was the perfectly fitted case. I asked Doug to take a look at it; I had no doubt that the pistol was boosted but felt that the case was 100% correct. Doug laughed at me about the gun but could not explain the beautiful case. I have been a life-long bird hunter and was given my first side-by-side, a cased Cogswell & Harrison, for my twelfth birthday by my grandfather...I know cased English guns and the Holland & Holland pistol case was 100% original in my mind. The case, gently aged exterior leather, oak structure and original interior label just continued to nag at me. A few days after I got back home from the show I was leafing through my latest copy of "Double Gun Journal" on one of the last pages was a full page add by a high end dealer for a great set of Holland & Holland double guns in original case and including a Holland & Holland shotgun shell case. That case, approximately 9"X9" was exactly what was used as the donor box for the bogus H&H Luger. A very skilled craftsmen had simply gutted and replaced the interior and used good aged green felt to finish it. Such felt can be easily obtained from any gaming casino in Nevada. Donor material is crtitical to professional counterfeiting. The guy who modified the case for the set of pistols above needs to work on technique.

03-14-2011, 04:24 PM	#26
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	While revisiting the photo of the leather patch, I also noticed that on the lower, right lobe of the emblem you can faintly see the telltale signs where it was trimmed in small cuts with a nail scissors or similar. A factory produced item would have been stamped out with a dye. This is not the old world quality one would expect from such a set.

03-14-2011, 04:33 PM	#27
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	I can't speak to the authenticity of the guns, but it's my understanding that no fleur de lis marked Lugers were produced by DWM. However, whoever fabricated this set did a beautiful job, they are superb! As to the fitted case, I can speak with some authority. George is quite correct, as I know from first hand experience. In the Antique and Estate Jewelry business, retrofitting the interiors of vintage jewelry boxes is commonplace. In fact there is a lively market for old boxes, particularly the very distinctive red and gold ones marked "Cartier". Regards, Norm

03-14-2011, 06:49 PM	#29
Ben M. User Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Retired to Naples, FL. Posts: 474 Thanks: 82 Thanked 117 Times in 79 Posts	Postino, It is Cycles. As in bicycles.

03-14-2011, 08:15 PM	#31
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Norm, thanks for the comment. It's mind blowing what you said about The Multinational Pistol. Nevertheless I understand the general caution out there and also Vlim's concern about the St. Etienne address. Why, if that's the case, the St. Etienne marking on the barrel top was not stamped "Paris"? There's so much that we see today, what with the expiration of many "old time" collectors, coming to market that is hard to explain as no verifiable records exist. All I can say is that anyone with experience who examines this set will see they are real from "A" to "Z". I appreciate Ron Wood's approach to this...he has an educated experienced open mind.

03-14-2011, 09:08 PM	#32
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Herb, To the best of my knowledge no "Fleur de Lis" Luger has been found in France so far, which is why some of us are so suspicious of this set. If, in fact, documentation exists tracing these guns back to "a French sportsman of means" it will be a first! The topic of the 'Fleur de Lis" comes up from time to time, most recently on the "other" forum, see link. Despite all that, I really like these guns, whoever made them. Best regards, Norm http://luger.gunboards.com/showthrea...t=fleur+de+lis

03-14-2011, 09:13 PM	#33
LugerVern User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Virginia Posts: 563 Thanks: 1 Thanked 34 Times in 27 Posts	When we see a beautiful gun that has been customized, it is easy to get lost in that beauty. Is it real? It depends on what we are trying to determine. The case was obviously made years after the gun to enhance the sets overall appeal. The guns look great until you examine the crest, we train ourselves to look for consistency and the crest simply does not have the same consistency as the rest of the gun, meaning that it was most likely " engraved sometime later" . I have heard the phrase " roll die & stamped" used in conjunction with this gun and I do not believe this is correct. A roll die or stamp used to make such deep impressions would have upset a great deal of metal and we just do not see this. Also there are signs that someone has tried to enhance the halos around the crest, too much of a good thing. The halos are inconsistent, they are not in the right locations. A beautiful presentation set " YES" and anyone would be happy to own them. Vern

03-15-2011, 07:43 AM	#34
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	That said, ManuFrance did offer custom engravings for a few bucks extra.

03-15-2011, 09:25 AM	#35
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Vlim, you are indeed correct. Someone on the Forum earlier even posted photos from an early French catalog that offered several choices for chamber stampings. No Fleur de Lys was there, however, but the catalog was from 1906. Maybe a 1900 catalog offered this choice. Also, Lugervern, the crests are obviously roll died. Look closely, metal can be seen to be displaced. You aren't able to roll your finger over it but if you could, you can feel it very easily. Also note that an obvious halo can be seen around the stamping. Certain things must be taken on faith if one cannot have the pistols in hand.

03-15-2011, 11:47 AM	#36
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi, The Luger pistol was not offered in any ManuFrance catalog before 1907. Which indicates that ManuFrance did not sell them before 1907.

03-15-2011, 08:53 PM	#39
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Norm, when I say you must make decisions with gun in hand, I mean you must use all the painful learning experiences and use them to hopefully screen out the fakes on the spot. Fakes, as you know, can be almost impossible to tell from originals, that's one reason I waited so long to buy that 1917 Navy. It, in addition to having all the right requisites, was stamped GERMANY under the barrel. I assumed that a faker would not go to the trouble to add this stamping (???).