Clark/Thor Heavy Barrel Target Luger - Page 2

ViggoG · 01-26-2003, 01:39 AM

AGE,
Please take the advice of an old NASA Designer,
Loose the Inconel, That is bad stuff.
The very things that make it seem desirable, Tough and Rust resistant. Also make it Lousy for production and succeptable to seizing up.The Older Nickel Alloys in my book are bad medicine.
Look to 17-4 PH or some of the other new and better machining Precipitation Hardening Steels.
The have the added advantage of being able to harden any of the rubbing parts to differing hardness and thereby diminishing the galling problem.
ViggoG

HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr · 01-26-2003, 05:16 PM

In my poinion adjustable rear sights will be best for bull barrel lugers, as the front sights tends to be very high oteherwise.
So Thor's idea with a adjustable front sight is problably the best and then make the front sight so you do the elevation on that and a rear sight for windage.

Bowen and bomar sights are made from barstock steel and is of very high quality, Ruger sights are some cheap alu **** and is not recomended.

The sight problem is not the material, its the stresses caused by the toggle.

We havent had any attaching problems as the bomars and the bowens was silversolderd on.
Screws will deffinitley not work in the long run.

Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

ViggoG · 01-27-2003, 12:46 AM

HÃ?Â¥kan, Age, Thor,
I have an old "H&R SPORTSMAN" which has an Elevating Front Sight that is adjusted by screwing a modified allen screw along the barrel axis under the front sight.
Very "Simple" and with some changes could probably be made to work very good.
This accompanied by a horizontal dovetailed rear sight that adjusts similsr to a 4 jaw lathe chuck might just do the job.
If you are interested I will be glad to make a rough sketch and E-mail it to Thor who can post it in this column.
ViggoG

AGE · 01-27-2003, 11:43 PM

I guess I'll stick to my 1911s for adjustable sights. Sounds like they are too much trouble on Lugers. Still.... Anyway, who knows what someone may come up with.

arjen · 03-13-2003, 02:20 PM

Would it not be possible to mount the sights on an inverted U shape bridge attached to the frame, but which does not contact the toggle.

I have a Vostok MCM Margolin .22 which uses such an arrangement to aid in keeping the sights aligned. Doing the same thing on a Luger might not look too aestheticically pleasing, but it would mean the sights wouldn't get beat up by the toggle action.

John Sabato · 03-13-2003, 02:40 PM

Where would you put this margolin type bridge arjen? I don't see how you could do this except forward of the toggle...and you need that space for ejection of the empty cases...

That toggle sure uses a lot of space when in motion. How about posting a sketch of your concept?

The only real successful adjustable iron sights (other than HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr's custom Bomar sights) are the original Navy sight, and the original Artillery sight that is mounted on the rear of the barrel.

Ron Wood · 03-13-2003, 03:09 PM

The other successful adjustable rear iron sight is the MMC miniature sight, which some of the guys mentioned in the posts above, that was available in the '70s. It was designed by MMC, which was then located in the little town of Deming, NM, and was made up special for Skeeter Skelton. The sight was featured in an article by Skeeter "For Love of a Long Barreled Luger" in, I believe, Shooting Times. Unfortunately a lot of my reference material is in storage right now, so I can't locate the article. In it, Skeeter told of his build up of a 6" barreled Luger on which he installed this special sight. It was only approximately 1/2-inch wide and also worked well on PPKs. MMC marketed the sight for a time as the "Skelton Special", but it has been out of production for a long time. It was dovetailed into the rear toggle link and was adjustable only in windage, but it was a really slick little sight.

Recently I contacted MMC to see if any old stock was available. Unfortunately MMC has changed hands, there are no more "Skelton Specials" in their old inventory, and they have no plans to re-issue it. Perhaps if more of us bugged MMC so that they would know there is at least a semi-substantial limited market (oxymoron?) they might consider running off a few. One can hope.

unspellable · 03-19-2003, 03:46 PM

Sights aside, what does it take in the way of ammo to make a bull barreled Parabellum work? All else being equal, a heavier barrel implies more impulse required to cycle the action. Of course there would be the same question with a long barrel, but at least the long barrel tends to produce more velocity which produces more impulse. From what I've heard, the weight of a long barrel goes up faster than the impulse so they like spiffy loads.

Thor · 03-19-2003, 05:18 PM

US,that is what I thought too, but even with the 6" version Hugh told me it worked with standard ammo.

HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr · 04-06-2003, 02:11 AM

I have built a number of bull barrel lugers now and none that I have built have worked with standard ammo until the recoilspring was changed.

We built a 10.5"semi bull barrel luger that also got a gaskick installed.
the gaskick is bleeding out gas from underneath the barrel and working against a pin that puches on the foreend iron.
That was a must to get that gun to work with standard ammo.

Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

John Sabato · 04-07-2003, 10:37 AM

HÃ?Â¥kan,

Nice to hear from you after such a long time.

HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr · 04-07-2003, 03:11 PM

Thanks John

Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

01-27-2003, 11:43 PM	#24
AGE User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Florida Posts: 597 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I guess I'll stick to my 1911s for adjustable sights. Sounds like they are too much trouble on Lugers. Still.... Anyway, who knows what someone may come up with. __________________ Al Eggers (AGE) NRA Life Member

03-13-2003, 02:40 PM	#26
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Where would you put this margolin type bridge arjen? I don't see how you could do this except forward of the toggle...and you need that space for ejection of the empty cases... That toggle sure uses a lot of space when in motion. How about posting a sketch of your concept? The only real successful adjustable iron sights (other than HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr's custom Bomar sights) are the original Navy sight, and the original Artillery sight that is mounted on the rear of the barrel. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

03-13-2003, 03:09 PM	#27
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,987 Thanks: 1,067 Thanked 5,090 Times in 1,675 Posts	The other successful adjustable rear iron sight is the MMC miniature sight, which some of the guys mentioned in the posts above, that was available in the '70s. It was designed by MMC, which was then located in the little town of Deming, NM, and was made up special for Skeeter Skelton. The sight was featured in an article by Skeeter "For Love of a Long Barreled Luger" in, I believe, Shooting Times. Unfortunately a lot of my reference material is in storage right now, so I can't locate the article. In it, Skeeter told of his build up of a 6" barreled Luger on which he installed this special sight. It was only approximately 1/2-inch wide and also worked well on PPKs. MMC marketed the sight for a time as the "Skelton Special", but it has been out of production for a long time. It was dovetailed into the rear toggle link and was adjustable only in windage, but it was a really slick little sight. Recently I contacted MMC to see if any old stock was available. Unfortunately MMC has changed hands, there are no more "Skelton Specials" in their old inventory, and they have no plans to re-issue it. Perhaps if more of us bugged MMC so that they would know there is at least a semi-substantial limited market (oxymoron?) they might consider running off a few. One can hope. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

03-19-2003, 05:18 PM	#29
Thor User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 4,583 Thanks: 958 Thanked 970 Times in 276 Posts	US,that is what I thought too, but even with the 6" version Hugh told me it worked with standard ammo. __________________ Thor's Luger Clinic http://members.rennlist.com/lugerman/ Ted Green (Thor Yaller Boots) 725 Western Hills Dr SE, Rio Rancho, NM 87124 915-526-8925 Email thor340@aol.com ----------------------------------- John3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

04-07-2003, 10:37 AM	#31
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	HÃ?Â¥kan, Nice to hear from you after such a long time. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

01-26-2003, 01:39 AM	#21
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	AGE, Please take the advice of an old NASA Designer, Loose the Inconel, That is bad stuff. The very things that make it seem desirable, Tough and Rust resistant. Also make it Lousy for production and succeptable to seizing up.The Older Nickel Alloys in my book are bad medicine. Look to 17-4 PH or some of the other new and better machining Precipitation Hardening Steels. The have the added advantage of being able to harden any of the rubbing parts to differing hardness and thereby diminishing the galling problem. ViggoG

01-26-2003, 05:16 PM	#22
HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 282 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	In my poinion adjustable rear sights will be best for bull barrel lugers, as the front sights tends to be very high oteherwise. So Thor's idea with a adjustable front sight is problably the best and then make the front sight so you do the elevation on that and a rear sight for windage. Bowen and bomar sights are made from barstock steel and is of very high quality, Ruger sights are some cheap alu **** and is not recomended. The sight problem is not the material, its the stresses caused by the toggle. We havent had any attaching problems as the bomars and the bowens was silversolderd on. Screws will deffinitley not work in the long run. Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

01-27-2003, 12:46 AM	#23
ViggoG RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: South Side Virginia Posts: 534 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post	HÃ?Â¥kan, Age, Thor, I have an old "H&R SPORTSMAN" which has an Elevating Front Sight that is adjusted by screwing a modified allen screw along the barrel axis under the front sight. Very "Simple" and with some changes could probably be made to work very good. This accompanied by a horizontal dovetailed rear sight that adjusts similsr to a 4 jaw lathe chuck might just do the job. If you are interested I will be glad to make a rough sketch and E-mail it to Thor who can post it in this column. ViggoG

03-13-2003, 02:20 PM	#25
arjen User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Dominion of Canada Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Would it not be possible to mount the sights on an inverted U shape bridge attached to the frame, but which does not contact the toggle. I have a Vostok MCM Margolin .22 which uses such an arrangement to aid in keeping the sights aligned. Doing the same thing on a Luger might not look too aestheticically pleasing, but it would mean the sights wouldn't get beat up by the toggle action.

03-19-2003, 03:46 PM	#28
unspellable User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 768 Thanks: 0 Thanked 18 Times in 10 Posts	Sights aside, what does it take in the way of ammo to make a bull barreled Parabellum work? All else being equal, a heavier barrel implies more impulse required to cycle the action. Of course there would be the same question with a long barrel, but at least the long barrel tends to produce more velocity which produces more impulse. From what I've heard, the weight of a long barrel goes up faster than the impulse so they like spiffy loads.

04-06-2003, 02:11 AM	#30
HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 282 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I have built a number of bull barrel lugers now and none that I have built have worked with standard ammo until the recoilspring was changed. We built a 10.5"semi bull barrel luger that also got a gaskick installed. the gaskick is bleeding out gas from underneath the barrel and working against a pin that puches on the foreend iron. That was a must to get that gun to work with standard ammo. Regards HÃ?Â¥kan

04-07-2003, 03:11 PM	#32
HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 282 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks John Regards HÃ?Â¥kan