Is it just me? ...

... Or are Luger Hold Opens mysterious devices the operate only when they damn well feel like it? Am being tormented by a Luger poltergeist?


I've been shooting Lugers for about 3 months now, and I'm baffled by the hold open. Never had a semi-auto pistol that didn't hold open all the time.


I have a matching refinished 1918 DWM. I also have 2 matching artillerys-- a 1915 and a 1916. The 1918 and 1915 are very finicky about holding open. I've replaced the h.o. device in the 1918 and tried various different magazines--and it's never held open consistently. With the 1915, I've tried different mags, and found only ONE --an FXO--that holds open consistently. With the 1916, which is the best gun of the lot, a recent purchase from Ralph Shattuck that's hardly been fired, the variable seems to be ammo. It holds open with every magazine I try, even cheap ones--but only with certain ammo, such as White Box Winchester 115 gr. FMJ. Never ho's with Federal American Eagle 124 gr. FMJ--even with the FXO mag or an almost-new Schmeisser.


This lack of rhyme or reason baffles me. I still enjoy shooting the guns, but it's annoying to be fiddling with the h.o. all the time. Any comments, observations, hints, etc.?


(Thanks for your comments in the past few weeks, guys, you've been really patient and helpful with a newbie!)

[DAVID]

Possible ideas.


Take one good magazine and put one round in it. load and fire that one round. Do this in each pistol. if the hold open does not work the ammo could be underpowered for that pistol.


Other idea. If the weapon is not held firmly in recoil, the pistol may lose momentum and slow down enough to fail to hold open.


Take each pistol and remove the cannon assembly and and insert each magazine in the frame and see if the hold open moves up freely.


question does the pistols jam with ammo in general shooting?

[Patrick]

If the h.o. works when you pull the toggle back manually, it can only be the ammunition that doesn�´t fully cycle the action. Or are there other factors involved??

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Patrick I belive you are about right abouth the ammunition plus that the fact is that I belive that the Luger recoilsprings often are very much to stiff.

Espesially to the "whimp" ammo manufactured in USA.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[Kyrie]

Hi HÃ?Â¥kan,


Absolutely no offense or criticism intended, but all of the stuff one reads about â??whimp US ammunitionâ?� is untrue. The standards for chamber pressure for American commercial ammunition are set by ANSI/SAAMI (American National Standards Institute and the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer's Institute). The MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) for US produced 9x19 is identical to the MAP for US produced .357 Magnum. With that in mind, it should come as no surprise that US 9x19 ammunition will reliably cycle any mechanically sound Luger - even Artilleries with brand new and very stiff recoil springs


Again, no offense intended. The above is offered purely as information in an attempt to dispel one of the more persistent myths in Luger lore


Best regards,


Kyrie

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Saami have lowerd the maximum allowed preassure limits.

That is very noticiable in some European cartridges cause they have lowerd it as well in order to be able to export it to the US.

I have competetivly used a lot of low powerd Speer Lawman ammo in my bull barrel luger and with exelent results.

But on the other hand I have a pretty weak mainspring.


However the american ammo manufactured today is much less than the Service ammo made originally for the luger.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[Kyrie]

Hi HÃ?Â¥kan,


Itâ??s *very* interesting that you should say the current US 9x19 is less than European service ammunition. Iâ??ve heard this many times, but have never been able to find any pressure data to support the assertion. Can you help here, and perhaps provide the service ammunition pressure standards? It would also be nice to know which countryâ??s service standard pressure it may be.


Please donâ??t misunderstand me. Iâ??m aware the C.I.P. standards permit higher pressures for the 9x19 than does SAAMI - Iâ??m curious about military service standards.


Regarding SAAMI lowering the maximum allowable pressure standards, I can share with you if this happened it did so more than 30 years ago (which is how long Iâ??ve had to keep SAAMI standards). Also, there is no US statue requiring imported ammunition to meet SAAMI (or any other) standard. If the European ammunition manufacturers are reducing the maximum allowable pressure of cartridges they export to the US, they are doing so for their own reasons.


The US is a very different place from Europe, in terms of our firearm and ammunition standards. We have no proof laws, and compliance with SAAMI standards is voluntary with no legal penalties for companies who chose not to follow SAAMI standards. All the US produced +P+ (and much of the +P) ammunition is non-compliant with SAAMI. This sometimes horrifies my European friends, but we like it this way


Best regards,


Kyrie

David, Good suggestion. And, in answer to your questions, the pistols cycle flawlessly except for hold open issue. Thanks.

David missed you at the meeting Tuesday.


Bob

Thanks Bob. Unfortunately, I've gotta split my time between Austin & Dallas -Ft Worth now, and I had to be in the Metroplex then. Let's shoot for the June mtg. Thanks.

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

Our Police service ammo shoots a 125 gr Norma TC bullet at 1300 FPS.

The Subgun ammo used by the defenceforces in both subguns and Glockpistols is at higher velocitys but the bullet weigth is less. On the other hand the jacket is much harder ( Steel) so it without problems penetrate most protetctive jackets.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

[Patrick]

"... The pistols cycle flawlessly except for hold open issue." (!). That�´s exactly it. As Hakan said - either the spring is too stiff or the ammo is too weak so that the action cannot cycle. But please don�´t smart bomb Sweden - I�´m sure no offense was meant. Patrick

[Kyrie]

Hi HÃ?Â¥kan,


Thank you for the reply, and for the bullet weight and muzzle velocity of your Police service ammunition. Alas, what I was requesting was chamber pressure standards data.


Best regards,


Kyrie

[Patrick]

Tom, if the action does not fully activate so that it cannot override the hold-open, the spring is either too strong - or the ammo too weak. As the spring is most likely older than 2/3rds of the population, I concur with Hakon that the ammo must be too weak. This is one of the commonest Luger problems. I�´ve experimented and now re-load for each of my Lugers individually.I use Geco brass when I can get it. Otherwise I use U.S. brass and, if I can�´t get that, I resort to S&B - which is often too short and varies in quality. Patrick

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

There is actually a few more factors.

One of them is that the hook where the magazinecatch hooks in is often badly worn and the magazine sits lower in the gun than it should.


Someitmes the toggle stays up even though it should close the gun as there is more rounds left in the mag, and I feel this is because the hold open catch spring have to low tension.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

Wow! What a great discussion. Thanks for all the responses. Re the ammo v. spring issue, I've followed the consensus of the forum & bought Winchester 115 gr. from Walmart. Disoovered I had some 147 gr. Win. today & shot it & the h.o. worked just fine on the recalcitrant gun. However, I also noticed when cleaning them tonight that the recalcitrant gun's h.o. spring was tighter -- it's a 1915 --compared to the gun that holds open -- a 1916. I'm gonna try storing the 1915 with the toggle open so as to loosen the spring.

[HÃ?Â¥kan Spuhr]

When I build my heavy barreld lugers I install a new Wolf spring that I shortend as a compensation for the heavy barrel. SO why not go aheaad buy yourself a new #38 spring from Wolf and REMEBMER how much you shorten it until the next time.

IF you shortend springs you have to heat it at the shortend end so there not is an opening at the spring.


Regards HÃ?Â¥kan



http://www.vapensmedjan.com

Thanks, Hakan. I think Wolff also sells a #36 spring, which should be little softer. Isn't #38 the factory standard?