Interarms RG luger

[zinfull]

Saw this on GB and was wondering how true is the write up. This just does not seem right to me and would like more info.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=108701322

A little high in the price area.

Jerry

[Vlim]

Renato Gamba didn't take this batch of lugers, so it was sold to Interarms instead, nothing fancy about it, really. Just a deal that went wrong. Mauser would market Gamba made revolvers in Germany and Gamba would sell Mauser guns in Italy. It didn't work out really well, that idea.

It is correct that in Italy the 9x19mm para is prohibited, since it is a 'miltary round'. Most 9x19 guns are rechambered to 9x21 for that matter.

ps: If this really was 'one of 100', you would expect the serial number to be something like 'RG001' to 'RG100'. Since this one is number 504, it really is number 504

The interesting part of these guns is also that the original serial numbers were milled out and that new numbers were engraved in place. It points towards the RG series being made of left-over commercial Mauser Parabellum production.

[jamese]

I dont know about you guys, but I agree with ZinFull I think the asking price is about $2K over what I think it should be, or were missing something here.

Jim

[Vlim]

Yes, the asking price is a bit on the rediculous side.
I don't think the RG-number is worth the extra 2k either.

[alvin]

One thing that I don't like postwar Mauser -- although being original, they look like refurbished if judged by pre-1945 "check list"..... the chamber crest is blurred (if there is an Eagle), the muzzle band edge is not sharp, the crown is blued, the frame ear looks horrible, the grip panels looks re-checked, etc, etc. Old rules/standards do not apply to post-war.

===

I heard they were cast, not milled (?)

[Vlim]

Hi Alvin,

Of course, opinions vary. But the Postwar Mauser Parabellum was only possible because some of the older manufacturing processes were radically changed (or dropped) as otherwise the pistol would have become too expensive for the market (see what the new Krieghoff Parabellum costs).

This meant a couple of things, including not using the horrendously expensive rust blue method, machining small parts from solid blocks of metal and other time, labour and money consuming activities

In fact, Mauser got their quality control up to a level that was never reached by the pre-war manufacturing processes. Tolerances between individual parts were so small that no pre-blue fitting was needed, except for a few tricky parts.

These guns only exist because Mauser engineers found ways to overcome the problems of the old design. They should be viewed as what they are: A postwar Mauser made gun that only shares it's heritage with the pre-1948 luger design. It's not meant to be a copy of the early luger, just a more modern version using the same concept.

Some parts were cast rather than milled and also other techniques like sintering were used as well. It made sense. Why machine a part when you can cast a version that is just as good or even better?

[lugerholsterrepair]

I know there are those who collect this sort of thing but for the same money a collector could have a pretty nice DWM or Mauser. I just don't like all the writing, stamps etc. plus I agree with Alvin on his points too...While resurecting the Luger was a grand thing to do, the result is not something I am lusting after. Just not up to original standards.

Jerry Burney

[G.T.]

Hi Jerry, You just explained why people love what you do with leather! It's done the old mastercraftsman way... just like they did 100 years ago or more.... Anything less... is just not desirable... just my two cents worth... Best to you, til...lat'r.....GT

[Vlim]

I guess that's ok when they pay the craftsmen the money they would have paid 100 years ago

What the Germans did 100 years ago had little to do with 'mastercraftsmanship'. They were catching up on the US way of doing things and combined greatly improved automated production methods with excellent quality control which enabled not-too-schooled workers to produce good quality products. They invented the industrial norm which laid the basis of the modern day ISO quality norms and they practiced making sewing machines.

So I personally wouldn't want to call the luger a piece of 'mastercraftsmanship'. It's an excellent but expensive bit of engineering which was viable because labour was cheap, production methods and quality control were good and the largest customer was a bribable military organization. Even these factors could not hide the fact that the luger was too expensive to produce, mainly because of a number of production steps that bordered on insanity if anything else.

The post war Mauser engineers took lots of steps trying to remove the insanity from the design and clean it up, just like the Swiss had already done in 1929, all trying to reduce production costs. So from an engineering point of view, the Mauser Parabellum was a better product than any pre-war luger.

Did Mauser make mistakes? Certainly. Choosing the optics of the Swiss design was not a good idea, neither was the fact that the Swiss M1929 and the derived Mauser Parabellum design were designed around the 7,65 para round and not the 9mm one.

I guess it's human nature to want to believe in a legend one way or the other but the real story is not so glamorous or romantic. But I find it too easy to say that it's bad or void of crafsmanship while the basic concept is largely better than the old one ever was.

Let's just respect it as a variation in a long line of the Luger manufacturing tradition.

[jamese]

A postwar Mauser made gun that only shares it's heritage with the pre-1948 luger design. It's not meant to be a copy of the early luger, just a more modern version using the same concept.

Gerben,
I never looked at it quite like that before, very interesting perspective

[lugerholsterrepair]

Gerben, I agree with all you have said..very well put. For most collectors however, the end result is what counts. That labor was cheap is what enabled DWM to produce an elegant pistol that we crave to hold in our hands and admire. The worker who crafted thes pistols did not have dreams as we do today of becoming a millionaire..just to feed, house and clothe his Family.
The historical perspective is another admirable aspect of owning these pre 45 pistols. The present crop of modern pistols, the list is endless..plastic and cast metals, are only a way to put a bullet down range. A good tool to be sure but with no history or elegant design. I don't even care for the Swiss changes. I can appreciate them and their function of course but for pure beauty, they hold second place to the original German designs.
I think it's a preference for and an appreciation of esthetics.
I can compare it to automobile design...The early auto's, 1920's-30's were designs of elegance and beauty. No..they were not better cars than today of course! I appreciate the changes to the modern automobile but I would rather look at a 1938 Chevy!
Jerry Burney

[Vlim]

Jerry, you certainly have got a point there.

(although I can safely say that my 'brand of choice' made better cars in the past than in the last decade )

[HisSoldier]

Well, I've got two of the P-08 models made in the 70's in mint condition, One unfired since new and the other possibly unfired. A mint condition prewar Luger would be insanely expensive.
The possibly unfired one, how would I tell if it had been fired since leaving the factory? It's a 9MM 4" barrel one, and if it's been fired I'll use it as a shooter. It's due to arrive tomorrow! Either way I'm happy.

[Vlim]

how would I tell if it had been fired since leaving the factory?

Basically you can't. But check for blue wear around the toggle axis and the frame 'ears'.

[HisSoldier]

I received it yesterday, in my opinion it has been fired. I'll use it as a shooter. Anyway, I figure the other one, the .30 cal 6" barrel one, is much more rare having been built in far fewer numbers.