Weimar politics and Lugers

Balder · 04-16-2011, 05:19 PM

Gentlemen,

It's funny how one thing can lead to another.

Even though I am a historian focusing on the 20th century, the German "Weimar"-period 1919-1933 has always been a bit fuzzy to me. Now, getting a 1911 DWM with some history to it made me take a dip into pre-WW1 German political history. I did the same thing when I acquired a 1918 Erfurt and a 1918/1920 DWM.

About this time I was kindly given the opportunity to pick whatever I wanted from a deceased - and very well read - old man's library. Among the titles I picked up was "Memoirs" by Franz von Papen, German chancellor prior to Hitler and a very central Weimar political player. My copy even turned out to be autographed by von Papen. It has its flaws, but it is still very interesting as a period-document written by a participant.

If there is anybody else out there interested in understanding the politial processes of the Weimar period, I stongly recommend this book. The author also shows good insight into the processes that finally led to Hitler's political rise.

Basically, Lugers rekindled a history flame in me. Just wanted to share.

Balder

Don M · 04-16-2011, 06:06 PM

John, congratulations on a fantastic acquisition. I'll bet the book is very enlightening. I know exactly what you mean about these guns creating an interest in a very turbulent era in Germany. It happened to me, too.!

FNorm · 04-16-2011, 06:21 PM

Not the same period, but I have a 1953 copy of, "The Rommel Papers". Including battle maps, and letters home. Fascinating.

FN

Schupo · 04-16-2011, 10:38 PM

I agree that the period of the Weimar Republic is fascinating. It is little studied or understood, yet it had a profound influence on the National Socialist Zeit. I too have become interested in this period over time and continue to study it.

Norme · 04-16-2011, 11:09 PM

Hi, Franz von Papen's 30 year career extended from the Imperial era into the Third Reich. !n 1917 he was to become a central figure in the German plan to persuade Mexico to attack the United States. In exchange for Mexican help Germany offered to return to Mexico their "lost territories" of Texas, Arizona and New Mexico, once the US was defeated. All this is covered in a wonderful book, "The Zimmerman Telegram", by Barbara W. Tuchman. Regards,Norm

Ron Smith · 04-17-2011, 11:09 AM

Another excellent book on this subject is "The Reichswehr and the German Republic 1919-1926" by Harold Gordon published by Princeton University Press. It is out of print, but comes up on Amazon, Idsa Books, ebay, etc. once in a while.

It goes into great chronological detail on the relationships between the Military, Police, Freikorps Units, Anarchist and Communist movements of the period, bringing it into perspective. It also has an Appendix listing nearly of the Freikorps units, and their transition / consolidation to the Reichswehr.

"In 1917 he was to become a central figure in the German plan to persuade Mexico to attack the United States. In exchange for Mexican help Germany offered to return to Mexico their "lost territories" of Texas, Arizona and New Mexico, once the US was defeated."

Norm,

I would assume that Mexico's reply was something to the effect of: "Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt... Thanks anyway!"

Ron

Norme · 04-17-2011, 11:59 AM

Hi Ron, Germany was hoping that a war with Mexico would keep the US from entering the war on the side of the allies. The plan was spelled out in a telegram that was intercepted and decoded by the British. When the telegram was made public, several German diplomats, including von Papen, were kicked out of the US and it was instrumental in getting Wilson to declare war on Germany. You should get the book, it's a great read. Best regards, Norm

A.Mifsin · 07-29-2011, 07:13 AM

Got me Looking and I found this

Now I have to find the Book.
Alf.

alanint · 07-29-2011, 08:11 AM

Actually, Mexico was seriously considering Germany's offer. German advisers had made up part of the Mexican Army's training cadre for many years by that point. The Mexican army was armed with German Mausers. There were serious border tensions, (Pancho Villa had recently raided Columbus, New Mexico, sparking the Pershing Punitive Expedition). The Mexican Goverment wanted all the territories north of the existing border, which were taken from them back.

04-16-2011, 05:19 PM	#1
Balder User Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Norway Posts: 288 Thanks: 20 Thanked 34 Times in 19 Posts	Weimar politics and Lugers Gentlemen, It's funny how one thing can lead to another. Even though I am a historian focusing on the 20th century, the German "Weimar"-period 1919-1933 has always been a bit fuzzy to me. Now, getting a 1911 DWM with some history to it made me take a dip into pre-WW1 German political history. I did the same thing when I acquired a 1918 Erfurt and a 1918/1920 DWM. About this time I was kindly given the opportunity to pick whatever I wanted from a deceased - and very well read - old man's library. Among the titles I picked up was "Memoirs" by Franz von Papen, German chancellor prior to Hitler and a very central Weimar political player. My copy even turned out to be autographed by von Papen. It has its flaws, but it is still very interesting as a period-document written by a participant. If there is anybody else out there interested in understanding the politial processes of the Weimar period, I stongly recommend this book. The author also shows good insight into the processes that finally led to Hitler's political rise. Basically, Lugers rekindled a history flame in me. Just wanted to share. Balder

04-16-2011, 06:06 PM	#2
Don M Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,429 Thanks: 67 Thanked 292 Times in 191 Posts	John, congratulations on a fantastic acquisition. I'll bet the book is very enlightening. I know exactly what you mean about these guns creating an interest in a very turbulent era in Germany. It happened to me, too.! __________________ Regards, Don donmaus1@aol.com Author of History Writ in Steel: German Police Markings 1900-1936 http://www.historywritinsteel.com

04-16-2011, 10:38 PM	#4
Schupo User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Kansas City Metro Posts: 206 Thanks: 1 Thanked 102 Times in 47 Posts	I agree that the period of the Weimar Republic is fascinating. It is little studied or understood, yet it had a profound influence on the National Socialist Zeit. I too have become interested in this period over time and continue to study it. __________________ "You can't please everyone, so you have got to please yourself." Ricky Nelson

04-17-2011, 11:09 AM	#6
Ron Smith User Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Orygun Posts: 4,243 Thanks: 118 Thanked 245 Times in 150 Posts	Another excellent book on this subject is "The Reichswehr and the German Republic 1919-1926" by Harold Gordon published by Princeton University Press. It is out of print, but comes up on Amazon, Idsa Books, ebay, etc. once in a while. It goes into great chronological detail on the relationships between the Military, Police, Freikorps Units, Anarchist and Communist movements of the period, bringing it into perspective. It also has an Appendix listing nearly of the Freikorps units, and their transition / consolidation to the Reichswehr. "In 1917 he was to become a central figure in the German plan to persuade Mexico to attack the United States. In exchange for Mexican help Germany offered to return to Mexico their "lost territories" of Texas, Arizona and New Mexico, once the US was defeated." Norm, I would assume that Mexico's reply was something to the effect of: "Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt... Thanks anyway!" Ron __________________ I Still Need DWM side plate #49... if anyone runs across a nice one. What ~Rudyard Kipling~ said...

07-29-2011, 07:13 AM	#8
A.Mifsin User Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Malta Posts: 570 Thanks: 74 Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts	Got me Looking and I found this Now I have to find the Book. Alf. Attached Thumbnails __________________ I prefer a Luger

04-16-2011, 06:21 PM	#3
FNorm Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 978 Thanks: 68 Thanked 127 Times in 108 Posts	Not the same period, but I have a 1953 copy of, "The Rommel Papers". Including battle maps, and letters home. Fascinating. FN

04-16-2011, 11:09 PM	#5
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi, Franz von Papen's 30 year career extended from the Imperial era into the Third Reich. !n 1917 he was to become a central figure in the German plan to persuade Mexico to attack the United States. In exchange for Mexican help Germany offered to return to Mexico their "lost territories" of Texas, Arizona and New Mexico, once the US was defeated. All this is covered in a wonderful book, "The Zimmerman Telegram", by Barbara W. Tuchman. Regards,Norm

04-17-2011, 11:59 AM	#7
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Ron, Germany was hoping that a war with Mexico would keep the US from entering the war on the side of the allies. The plan was spelled out in a telegram that was intercepted and decoded by the British. When the telegram was made public, several German diplomats, including von Papen, were kicked out of the US and it was instrumental in getting Wilson to declare war on Germany. You should get the book, it's a great read. Best regards, Norm

07-29-2011, 08:11 AM	#9
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Actually, Mexico was seriously considering Germany's offer. German advisers had made up part of the Mexican Army's training cadre for many years by that point. The Mexican army was armed with German Mausers. There were serious border tensions, (Pancho Villa had recently raided Columbus, New Mexico, sparking the Pershing Punitive Expedition). The Mexican Goverment wanted all the territories north of the existing border, which were taken from them back.