Hidden Proof Mark - Help to Identify

trekster · 02-22-2013, 04:58 PM

Obviously I am new to this forum and new to the world of Lugers. (Please excuse any newbe mistakes)

About a week ago, I acquired what I believe to be a Commercial "shooter". Have been reading ever since, trying to discover as much as I can about the possible manufacture date and other historical details. The seller said it was a WWII vet "bring back".

It is a 5-digit serial number, and all parts that are typically marked with the last two numbers of the serial number are matching, with the exception of the Safety piece that rises out of the receiver to block the sear spring movement in the Safe position. This particular part contains two digits, but not the same ones as all the other stamped pieces. Maybe that is typical, I don't know.

What I would like to identify is a "strange" proof mark that is hidden under the take-down lever, on the receiver frame. This mark has a small shield with a letter or something inside the shield (can't make out what it is). Then, around the shield are a lot of random length lines radiating out and encircling the shield, like a sunburst pattern. I've looked at several examples of proof marks on the internet, but fail to find any that look like this particular mark. Not too far from this mark, and in a few other places on the gun, there are the familiar Crown over N marks.

Wonder if any of you have seen this mark before, and what it means or any clues as to why it is on this particular gun. Thanks.

lugersrkewl · 02-22-2013, 05:19 PM

if it looks like this its a vopo police mark. But everyone including me will tell you pictures of this pistol are required to make any determination of what it is or isnt

trekster · 02-22-2013, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lugersrkewl

if it looks like this its a vopo police mark. But everyone including me will tell you pictures of this pistol are required to make any determination of what it is or isnt

I am working on getting some pics, and will have them added to this thread soon. The "police mark" you show is perhaps similar but the radiating lines on mine are longer, and whatever is inside the little "shield" is not very discernible.

I will get a good pic of it shortly. Thanks

Edward Tinker · 02-22-2013, 07:13 PM

Sam, welcome to the forum

Yes, pictures are needed for sure

If a Vopo marking, that would be post war / but you never know till you see the marking

padredan · 02-22-2013, 10:56 PM

welcome to the forum and congrats on your first luger

trekster · 02-22-2013, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by padredan

welcome to the forum and congrats on your first luger

Thanks. Actually, this is my second Luger. When I was much younger (20s) I liked to trade handguns a lot. I remember once having a Luger that had a barrel that was darn near smooth (very little of the lands and grooves left). I really have no idea what it was, and remember that I didn't have it very long.

I've always wanted another one, but just recently came across the one I recently acquired. I'm anxious to get more information about it, from all those that can help identify what it might be. I'm pretty confident that it has no collectible value - but it will be interesting to hear what others think.

Tomorrow I will be taking photos of it, and will post here in this thread.

trekster · 02-23-2013, 01:15 PM

Got some pictures taken of my P08. This first one is a close-up of the "mark" I would like to identify. There is also another "mark" to the lower left of it, but it is almost incomplete.

trekster · 02-23-2013, 01:22 PM

Here are additional photos of this item. I really look forward to hearing from those who might be able to give me some information about this particular piece.

trekster · 02-23-2013, 01:38 PM

A few more photos...

Wilhelm · 02-23-2013, 03:31 PM

East German rework imported by Sarco back in the very early 90's. Nice! I would bet that someone changed out both the grips and magazine on yours somewhere along the line. It also looks like they tried to obliterate the importer stamp and cold blued over it. IIRC, they sold for $475. I bought one and have loved it since!

trekster · 02-23-2013, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

East German rework imported by Sarco back in the very early 90's. Nice! I would bet that someone changed out both the grips and magazine on yours somewhere along the line. It also looks like they tried to obliterate the importer stamp and cold blued over it. IIRC, they sold for $475. I bought one and have loved it since!

Thanks for the info, appreciate you taking the time to look it over. Of course as you might imagine, your info sparks more questions in my mind.

1) Could you tell me a little more about what you mean by "East German rework"? What manufacturing plant, or who might have done the work? Did they always start with commercial pieces? What sort of rework would they have done?

2) If it was imported by Sarco, is it safe to say that it could NOT be a "WWII bring back"? What tipped you off that it was imported into this country by Sarco?

3) I was pretty certain the magazine and grips were added by someone. Also, it appears it was probably reblued at some point. Is this the type or "rework" that was typical to occur before it was imported, or after it was imported?

4) The bore is pretty good; about what you would expect for a piece this old. Given that the numbers match with the exception of the magazine, grips and the one safety piece - what would be a range for retail value, in today's market?

lugersrkewl · 02-23-2013, 04:04 PM

the sunburst is a vopo mark and the other is a rampant lion.....Bulgaria and Spain and England use them but I am unclear as to the origins, uses , and explanation of rampant lions.

shooter grade 400-700 if its 30 luger lower end, should have had the bbl changed to 9mm if east German reworked.

02-22-2013, 04:58 PM	#1
trekster User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Hidden Proof Mark - Help to Identify Obviously I am new to this forum and new to the world of Lugers. (Please excuse any newbe mistakes) About a week ago, I acquired what I believe to be a Commercial "shooter". Have been reading ever since, trying to discover as much as I can about the possible manufacture date and other historical details. The seller said it was a WWII vet "bring back". It is a 5-digit serial number, and all parts that are typically marked with the last two numbers of the serial number are matching, with the exception of the Safety piece that rises out of the receiver to block the sear spring movement in the Safe position. This particular part contains two digits, but not the same ones as all the other stamped pieces. Maybe that is typical, I don't know. What I would like to identify is a "strange" proof mark that is hidden under the take-down lever, on the receiver frame. This mark has a small shield with a letter or something inside the shield (can't make out what it is). Then, around the shield are a lot of random length lines radiating out and encircling the shield, like a sunburst pattern. I've looked at several examples of proof marks on the internet, but fail to find any that look like this particular mark. Not too far from this mark, and in a few other places on the gun, there are the familiar Crown over N marks. Wonder if any of you have seen this mark before, and what it means or any clues as to why it is on this particular gun. Thanks.

02-22-2013, 05:19 PM	#2
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	if it looks like this its a vopo police mark. But everyone including me will tell you pictures of this pistol are required to make any determination of what it is or isnt Attached Images

02-22-2013, 07:13 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,933 Thanks: 2,032 Thanked 4,530 Times in 2,092 Posts	Sam, welcome to the forum Yes, pictures are needed for sure If a Vopo marking, that would be post war / but you never know till you see the marking __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-22-2013, 10:56 PM	#5
padredan User Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: louisiana Now, but from the Rebublic of Texas Posts: 937 Thanks: 429 Thanked 316 Times in 182 Posts	welcome to the forum and congrats on your first luger __________________ In this world nothing is free, except the grace of God

02-23-2013, 01:15 PM	#7
trekster User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Got some pictures taken of my P08. This first one is a close-up of the "mark" I would like to identify. There is also another "mark" to the lower left of it, but it is almost incomplete. Attached Thumbnails

02-23-2013, 01:22 PM	#8
trekster User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Here are additional photos of this item. I really look forward to hearing from those who might be able to give me some information about this particular piece. Attached Thumbnails

02-23-2013, 01:38 PM	#9
trekster User Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 8 Thanks: 3 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	A few more photos... Attached Thumbnails

02-23-2013, 03:31 PM	#10
Wilhelm User Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Maryland Posts: 358 Thanks: 45 Thanked 125 Times in 59 Posts	East German rework imported by Sarco back in the very early 90's. Nice! I would bet that someone changed out both the grips and magazine on yours somewhere along the line. It also looks like they tried to obliterate the importer stamp and cold blued over it. IIRC, they sold for $475. I bought one and have loved it since! __________________ translatedfrenchmanuals@yahoo.com I promise to be nice and play well with others

02-23-2013, 04:04 PM	#12
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	the sunburst is a vopo mark and the other is a rampant lion.....Bulgaria and Spain and England use them but I am unclear as to the origins, uses , and explanation of rampant lions. shooter grade 400-700 if its 30 luger lower end, should have had the bbl changed to 9mm if east German reworked.