Japanese Nambu, uh, I MEAN LUGER

Edward Tinker · 02-02-2005, 08:40 AM

Here is something interesting. It belongs to Bob, and we discussed it at length, he bought it years ago, and real, fake, interesting, fascinating, it is cool to guess at, is a real Vickers Dutch Luger.

The magazine base is fashioned from a nambu mag base!

John Sabato · 02-02-2005, 10:00 AM

Ed,
Is that a handmade or modified Nambu mag bottom?

Dwight Gruber · 02-02-2005, 10:18 AM

Thats a very nice Vickers, I hope someone can translate the characters on the grips. You don't happen to have a photo of the bottom of the mag spine? would be interesting to know if it is originally a Dutch magazine...

--Dwight

Vlim · 02-02-2005, 12:22 PM

Hi,

Funny to see the same patina on the sideplate as on my KNIL DWM Dutch. KM probably stands for 'Korps Mariniers' or 'Kadettenschool Mangelang' (Marine Corps or Cadet school Mangelang).

This one was nicked from a Dutch arsenal or vessel.

Lovely piece.

Ron Wood · 02-02-2005, 01:27 PM

I am surprised that more Japanese marked Dutch Lugers don't turn up. I am sure a lot of them were picked up during the Japanese occupation. I have a KNIL holster that has two sets of Japanese inscriptions on the back, one probably scratched on with a pencil and the other in yellow paint.

Vlim · 02-03-2005, 12:13 PM

Hi,

Must've been a bit drunk when I replied. KM usually stands for Koninklijke Marine (Royal Navy). So keep it out of Tom A's reach

Ron, I'm convinced many Japanese who walked off with Dutch Lugers never bothered to mark them in any way.

Would be nice to know what it said on the grips (probably the owner's name/initials). (or Japanese for 'Put hand here' <grin>).

John Sabato · 02-03-2005, 12:40 PM

Did anyone see my question about the magazine bottom? Looks like a converted Nambu mag bottom to me...

Edward Tinker · 02-03-2005, 01:22 PM

John, the last part of the first message says;

The magazine base is fashioned from a nambu mag base!

It was just hidden by the pictures.

Ed

Ron Wood · 02-03-2005, 01:37 PM

How about the magazine tube? Was it originally a Dutch magazine (see Dwight's question above)?

Edward Tinker · 02-03-2005, 02:32 PM

I am unsure, will ask Bob T to come take a look here. I looked at it, even took pictures, but don't remember. Here is one picture that I didn't show before:

Ron Wood · 02-03-2005, 02:43 PM

If it was originally a Dutch magazine, there will be a small rectangular hole on the rear spine at the base. This secured the small leaf spring that held the wooden base in place and allowed the base to be removed for cleaning the interior of the magazine. Not the best design, since after a time there was sufficient wear to allow the base to drop out of the magazine spontaneously. Could be embarrassing in a fire fight.

Edward Tinker · 02-03-2005, 02:46 PM

I had heard that but never seen one Ron. He did have another dutch gun and this mag is in it:

Ron Wood · 02-03-2005, 03:06 PM

That is a beauty. As you can see it was modified later to add a pin to eliminate the "drop out" problem. Most Dutch mags will have this modification, sometimes with two pins. It is tough to find an unmodified Dutch magazine.

Bob Tracy · 02-03-2005, 03:39 PM

The magazine was an original Dutch Mag as it has the slot in the spine where the V clip which retained the base on the Dutch mag was placed. The base of the magazine was made from a filed down to fit Nambu base and held with 2 pins through the base and magazine body. The reddish material is hard rubber somewhat like a hardened old rubber eraser. I really had forgotten that the magazine had been modified from a original Dutch one. The characters on the grip translate from top to bottom as the numbers 6 4 2. The side plate while of a different finish does have the letter 17 stamped on the bottom and a very small D stamped inside. The book on Dutch Lugers does not show a KM marking for the brass plate but I have always been led to belive that KM stood for the Dutch Navy. It would be interesting if our friends in Europe might have some info. I bought the Luger in the early 1980's from Ralph, was looking at it as a tie between my Germany and Japanese pistols when I made a display, another one of my dreams that did not blossom as I never had any room to display the collection safely and they remained lock in safes untill I could show them to someone like ED.

Edward Tinker · 02-03-2005, 03:50 PM

And boy did we have fun those two days!

Bob Tracy · 02-03-2005, 03:57 PM

Ron regarding the Dutch Mag. I got this from Ralph Shattuck in 1968, I and my Father had visited Ralphs' home in Michigan prior to leaving for Vietnam.During the visit I bought a refinished 1906 Dutch, 1918 Erfurt (same one as in all of Kenyons' book as a 1918 Erfurt example) and my Dad bought me a "K" date that I could not afford even in 1968 dollars. Ralph showed me this original Luger magazine which was not for sale at the time. I asked him to watch out for one for me, he explained very difficult to fine but would look. approximately two months in to my Vietnam tour Ralph sent me a letter that felt bad about not selling me the Mag and that he had sent it to my wife for me and to pay him $50 when I could. I have always had a soft spot for that man and call him Dad even tho we are not that far apart in age. Anyhow that how I acquires that unmodified Magazine.

Dwight Gruber · 02-04-2005, 02:01 AM

Bob,

Thats a really nice Vickers with a very interesting history, thanks for showing it.

--Dwight

Vlim · 02-04-2005, 03:47 PM

Hi Bob,

During 1939 and 1940, the Dutch were in a hassle, reorganizing troops and modifying ID-tags on weapons accordingly. So not all the markings used were 'by the book' and not all were documented.

The Dutch used the original magazines, like the one shown with the little spring catch at first, but switched to normal magazines later. I have seen normal nickleplated wood-bottom (one retaining pin) Dutch magazines and also blue-tubed ones with a wood bottom, similar to some that surfaced with Portuguese pistols. In my opionion, all three are correct for a Dutch luger.

After some further research, I'm pretty sure that Koninklijke Marine is the correct meaning of your KM tag.

Bob Tracy · 02-06-2005, 09:16 PM

Thanks guys really appreciate your opinions. I never knew for sure what the history might be, all things seem to point to it being proper because I have had it for years and Ralph said it came out of a midwest collection where it had also been for years. 30 to 40 years ago there was no real reason to fake an item as no one knew much about the history or rarity of a lot of Lugers. It is now with all the books and the weapons coming out of Europe that people have to start worrying.

Motown · 02-16-2005, 01:34 AM

I think the kanji characters on the grips are the #s 502- but I'm having a friend's Japanese wife translate them... stand by. Probably a rack #.

02-02-2005, 08:40 AM	#1
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	Japanese Nambu, uh, I MEAN LUGER Here is something interesting. It belongs to Bob, and we discussed it at length, he bought it years ago, and real, fake, interesting, fascinating, it is cool to guess at, is a real Vickers Dutch Luger. The magazine base is fashioned from a nambu mag base!

02-02-2005, 10:00 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Ed, Is that a handmade or modified Nambu mag bottom? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-02-2005, 01:27 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	I am surprised that more Japanese marked Dutch Lugers don't turn up. I am sure a lot of them were picked up during the Japanese occupation. I have a KNIL holster that has two sets of Japanese inscriptions on the back, one probably scratched on with a pencil and the other in yellow paint. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-03-2005, 12:40 PM	#7
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,153 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Did anyone see my question about the magazine bottom? Looks like a converted Nambu mag bottom to me... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-03-2005, 01:37 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	How about the magazine tube? Was it originally a Dutch magazine (see Dwight's question above)? __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-02-2005, 10:18 AM	#3
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,899 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,303 Times in 429 Posts	Thats a very nice Vickers, I hope someone can translate the characters on the grips. You don't happen to have a photo of the bottom of the mag spine? would be interesting to know if it is originally a Dutch magazine... --Dwight

02-02-2005, 12:22 PM	#4
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Funny to see the same patina on the sideplate as on my KNIL DWM Dutch. KM probably stands for 'Korps Mariniers' or 'Kadettenschool Mangelang' (Marine Corps or Cadet school Mangelang). This one was nicked from a Dutch arsenal or vessel. Lovely piece.

02-03-2005, 12:13 PM	#6
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi, Must've been a bit drunk when I replied. KM usually stands for Koninklijke Marine (Royal Navy). So keep it out of Tom A's reach Ron, I'm convinced many Japanese who walked off with Dutch Lugers never bothered to mark them in any way. Would be nice to know what it said on the grips (probably the owner's name/initials). (or Japanese for 'Put hand here' <grin>).

02-03-2005, 01:22 PM	#8
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	John, the last part of the first message says; The magazine base is fashioned from a nambu mag base! It was just hidden by the pictures. Ed

02-03-2005, 02:32 PM	#10
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	I am unsure, will ask Bob T to come take a look here. I looked at it, even took pictures, but don't remember. Here is one picture that I didn't show before:

02-03-2005, 02:43 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	If it was originally a Dutch magazine, there will be a small rectangular hole on the rear spine at the base. This secured the small leaf spring that held the wooden base in place and allowed the base to be removed for cleaning the interior of the magazine. Not the best design, since after a time there was sufficient wear to allow the base to drop out of the magazine spontaneously. Could be embarrassing in a fire fight. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-03-2005, 02:46 PM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	I had heard that but never seen one Ron. He did have another dutch gun and this mag is in it:

02-03-2005, 03:06 PM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,017 Thanks: 1,089 Thanked 5,164 Times in 1,700 Posts	That is a beauty. As you can see it was modified later to add a pin to eliminate the "drop out" problem. Most Dutch mags will have this modification, sometimes with two pins. It is tough to find an unmodified Dutch magazine. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

02-03-2005, 03:39 PM	#14
Bob Tracy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 24 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	The magazine was an original Dutch Mag as it has the slot in the spine where the V clip which retained the base on the Dutch mag was placed. The base of the magazine was made from a filed down to fit Nambu base and held with 2 pins through the base and magazine body. The reddish material is hard rubber somewhat like a hardened old rubber eraser. I really had forgotten that the magazine had been modified from a original Dutch one. The characters on the grip translate from top to bottom as the numbers 6 4 2. The side plate while of a different finish does have the letter 17 stamped on the bottom and a very small D stamped inside. The book on Dutch Lugers does not show a KM marking for the brass plate but I have always been led to belive that KM stood for the Dutch Navy. It would be interesting if our friends in Europe might have some info. I bought the Luger in the early 1980's from Ralph, was looking at it as a tie between my Germany and Japanese pistols when I made a display, another one of my dreams that did not blossom as I never had any room to display the collection safely and they remained lock in safes untill I could show them to someone like ED.

02-03-2005, 03:50 PM	#15
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,927 Thanks: 2,026 Thanked 4,525 Times in 2,090 Posts	And boy did we have fun those two days! __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

02-03-2005, 03:57 PM	#16
Bob Tracy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 24 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Ron regarding the Dutch Mag. I got this from Ralph Shattuck in 1968, I and my Father had visited Ralphs' home in Michigan prior to leaving for Vietnam.During the visit I bought a refinished 1906 Dutch, 1918 Erfurt (same one as in all of Kenyons' book as a 1918 Erfurt example) and my Dad bought me a "K" date that I could not afford even in 1968 dollars. Ralph showed me this original Luger magazine which was not for sale at the time. I asked him to watch out for one for me, he explained very difficult to fine but would look. approximately two months in to my Vietnam tour Ralph sent me a letter that felt bad about not selling me the Mag and that he had sent it to my wife for me and to pay him $50 when I could. I have always had a soft spot for that man and call him Dad even tho we are not that far apart in age. Anyhow that how I acquires that unmodified Magazine.

02-04-2005, 02:01 AM	#17
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,899 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,303 Times in 429 Posts	Bob, Thats a really nice Vickers with a very interesting history, thanks for showing it. --Dwight

02-04-2005, 03:47 PM	#18
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,053 Thanks: 1,036 Thanked 3,988 Times in 1,205 Posts	Hi Bob, During 1939 and 1940, the Dutch were in a hassle, reorganizing troops and modifying ID-tags on weapons accordingly. So not all the markings used were 'by the book' and not all were documented. The Dutch used the original magazines, like the one shown with the little spring catch at first, but switched to normal magazines later. I have seen normal nickleplated wood-bottom (one retaining pin) Dutch magazines and also blue-tubed ones with a wood bottom, similar to some that surfaced with Portuguese pistols. In my opionion, all three are correct for a Dutch luger. After some further research, I'm pretty sure that Koninklijke Marine is the correct meaning of your KM tag.

02-06-2005, 09:16 PM	#19
Bob Tracy RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Austin, Texas Posts: 24 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks guys really appreciate your opinions. I never knew for sure what the history might be, all things seem to point to it being proper because I have had it for years and Ralph said it came out of a midwest collection where it had also been for years. 30 to 40 years ago there was no real reason to fake an item as no one knew much about the history or rarity of a lot of Lugers. It is now with all the books and the weapons coming out of Europe that people have to start worrying.

02-16-2005, 01:34 AM	#20
Motown User Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Double Oak, TX Posts: 47 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I think the kanji characters on the grips are the #s 502- but I'm having a friend's Japanese wife translate them... stand by. Probably a rack #. __________________ "Avoid excessive sharpness or harshness of voice, which usually indicates the man who has shortcomings of his own to hide." --Field Marshall Erwin Rommel