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Unread 01-27-2024, 10:46 PM   #1
Geladen
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Default Holster Identification and/or Info

Hello All,

I'm a relatively new member to the forum. I recently made my first post over in the P.08 forum. I'm hoping the knowledgeable people here will be able to help identify a holster and extra magazine that came with a byf 41 Luger I recently acquired.

I have attached some pictures for reference. From the limited research I've done, I think it may have been a WW1 Imperial Navy holster that was reworked for use in WW2. I've included pictures of all marks and stamps I've found on the holster. I didn't find any date stamp but it looks like possibly the tops of numbers 1917 or 1918 under where it says "Berlin". It does appear to have some sort of repair or modification done, which I have included pictures of at the end. That's about all I came up with and hoping someone can correct me or provide further insight.

The pistol came with the correct fxo & e/37 black bakelite bottom magazine, but also came with an extra magazine. I believe it's a blued tube, aluminum bottom, however it has two serial number stamps, and one has a prefix (not suffix) of "N". I have to been able to find any info on this except a possibility of it having to do with the Navy or a Northern Naval base. I've included pictures of the magazine for reference.

Thanks in advance for any information provided. I look forward to learning good information about Lugers on this forum.
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Unread 01-28-2024, 03:32 AM   #2
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The "M"over anchor on the holster denotes Navy issue (Marinen). I think the repair at the toe is post war. The Aluminum bottom magazine mark "N4401" is a "Nordsee"(North Sea) Navy property mark/serial number. I think the holster date may be 1937, which might jive with the WAa stamp, which has partially obliterated the date. Someone else will have to chime in on the other markings,(police?)
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Unread 01-28-2024, 03:57 AM   #3
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This will greatly improve the condition of the holster:

https://www.connollyengland.com/prod...-hide-care-n-a

Do not use Pecard.

G2
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Unread 01-28-2024, 03:31 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunnertwo View Post
This will greatly improve the condition of the holster:

https://www.connollyengland.com/prod...-hide-care-n-a

Do not use Pecard.

G2
Thanks.

Do you recommend the Connolly Leather Cleaner as well? Or some other method of cleaning prior to applying the Hide Care?
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Unread 01-28-2024, 07:47 PM   #5
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As far as I can tell the holster doesn't appear to be "dirty" or has crud on the surface. Jerry, AKA "Lugerholsterrepair" will see this thread and add comments.

G2
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Unread 01-29-2024, 04:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gunbugs View Post
The "M"over anchor on the holster denotes Navy issue (Marinen). I think the repair at the toe is post war. The Aluminum bottom magazine mark "N4401" is a "Nordsee"(North Sea) Navy property mark/serial number. I think the holster date may be 1937, which might jive with the WAa stamp, which has partially obliterated the date. Someone else will have to chime in on the other markings,(police?)
Interesting. I mentioned I thought it was a WW1 holster and part of the reason for this is the holster maker, Gustav Reinhardt, is on the list of WW1 holster makers (under Berlin) pinned to the top of the forum. Trying to determine if this holster is correct for the gun and worth repairing, or if I should seek a more correct holster. The gun is a byf 41 with correct fxo black bakelite bottom mag, so I'm trying to figure out how it ended up with a 1917 (or 1937) holster with the Navy stamp and an extra magazine with two serial numbers, one possibly having a North Sea serial number prefix. This holster is supposedly the one the vet brought the gun back with in 1945.
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Unread 01-29-2024, 05:51 PM   #7
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Geladen,
Your holster is an early 1934. Would have been for a "K" date luger. Per Costanzo-"World of Lugers" see page 384 entry #131 & p.105 entry #8. Note the thin lines of WaA18, this is an indication of early 1934, the lines thicken in later 1934. Also, see "Luger Holsters and Accessories" by Eugene Bender, p.210. Gustav Reinhardt Lederwarenfabrik, code assigned was "jsd". and the WaA assigned was "18".

Next the M/Anchor, Costanzo's book, p.386 with discussion on p. 193(corrected). Costanzo notes "seen on back of holster between belt loops". He also notes Weimer Navy.

Next the button strap on the inside of holster lid. See Gortz & Sturgess, "Green" Vol 3, p.1373-1374. the button strap was to secure a cleaning rod. This was done away with when the "Tobacco Can" cleaning kit came out on Sept 4, 1934.

Don't have any info on the S.D.N. 581 stamp.
Hope this helps.
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Unread 01-29-2024, 06:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G41M View Post
Geladen,
Your holster is an early 1934. Would have been for a "K" date luger. Per Costanzo-"World of Lugers" see page 384 entry #131 & p.105 entry #8. Note the thin lines of WaA18, this is an indication of early 1934, the lines thicken in later 1934. Also, see "Luger Holsters and Accessories" by Eugene Bender, p.210. Gustav Reinhardt Lederwarenfabrik, code assigned was "jsd". and the WaA assigned was "18".

Next the M/Anchor, Costanzo's book, p.386 with discussion on p. 123. Costanzo notes "seen on back of holster between belt loops". He also notes Weimer Navy.

Next the button strap on the inside of holster lid. See Gortz & Sturgess, "Green" Vol 3, p.1373-1374. the button strap was to secure a cleaning rod. This was done away with when the "Tobacco Can" cleaning kit came out on Sept 4, 1934.

Don't have any info on the S.D.N. 581 stamp.
Hope this helps.
Thanks. I appreciate the info! One discrepancy I noticed is the M/Anchor is stamped on the front, right next to the maker's mark, and not on the back between the belt loops. Furthermore, I have seen some info that the button strap you mentioned was for a pin punch. Finally, if indeed the WaA18 stamp obliterated the date stamp, then I still can't make out how the date would be 1934 from the what's remaining of the date stamp (if that's what it is)(see attached pictures). Were holsters ever repaired and reissued between the wars? Seems unlikely but not impossible.


Thanks!
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Unread 01-29-2024, 09:55 PM   #9
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Geladen,

Going to recommend two books that may clarify some of the history of this particular holster.

1) Gortz/Sturgess, Vol 3-Green book, page 1373, you will see 2 color pictures of holsters with a cleaning rod secured by a flap. Left picture is same maker, same navy stamp, with a cleaning rod in the lid. Look at left picture under magnification, you will see the same short 4 marks underneath "Berlin", there is no date visible at all. Holster to the right is a 1934 Karl Ackva AG with a cleaning rod held in the lid. #1293 Caption to the picture is "a WWI P.08 holster issued to the Weimar era Navy, modified to carry a cleaning rod by addition of a pocket strap, with some additional comments following. Below the two captions, authors state "Only in 1934 were holsters made, or frequently modified to be fitted under their lids with a tube-like leather boot for the jag end of the cleaning rod and an additional leather strap which was passed through the loop handle of the rod and buttoned on the stud of the screwdriver pouch over the screwdriver flap".

2) If you have volume 3, Red, of the Borchardt & Luger by Gortz/Sturgess. Go to page 1249, there is a close up of the holster front like yours, same maker same stamps. I see the same 4 underline bars below "Berlin", but there is no date visible. The same Federal Eagle M as yours, this was used until 1936 when it changed to a straight wing Eagle.

3) Back to page 193 in Costanzo, his whole statement on the M/anchor relative to holsters is "back of holster between belt loops, on right belt loop, inside body of holster. I think it is a "plus" the holster has the Navy marking.

4) Your holster gets its new lease on life in 1934, and this is known by the style of the eagle and the line thickness of the WaA18 stamp. Thin in early 1934 and thick in late 1934.

Having reread G&S, probably originally made during WW1, what I can't answer is if there was a 1918 stamp below "Berlin", how was it removed so cleanly without gouging the holster leather.

Part of the fun in collecting is researching a mystery.
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Unread 01-31-2024, 02:19 PM   #10
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This holster is NOT 1934 or even close. It was made in 1926. In 1929 the holster design changed drastically. THIS example is plainly of the WW1 style. It has a Weimar M Anchor Navy stamp
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Unread 01-31-2024, 04:10 PM   #11
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Jerry,
Do you mean it was made in 1926, or that it was made prior to 1926?
Ron
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Unread 01-31-2024, 04:50 PM   #12
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Ron, It has all the characteristics of holsters just like it dated 1926. Build AND maker mark, sometime during or just after they dropped the 1926 date off of these holsters for an unknown reason. These are often called SIMSON holsters.
Charles Whittaker on "Land of Borchardt" has a wonderful article about them.
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Unread 02-01-2024, 04:38 PM   #13
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Thank you Sir! Never too old to get "edgikated"
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Unread 02-14-2024, 03:56 AM   #14
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I think it was made prior to 1926 because the military holsters changed their design already in 1926 and not 1929 as above written. I have 1926 dated holsters made by Cobau, Fischer, Pose and Auwärter which show the new design. Another 1927 dated holster has the new design too.
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Unread 02-14-2024, 02:31 PM   #15
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Klaus,

Good to see you posting on this forum again.
Your knowledge of imperial items, holsters and tools are always appreciated.
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