Need help with finishes on C96

[rhuff]

From what I can see, it looks wonderful!! What a nice transformation.

[alvin]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Ollie, nice work! A silk purse created from the proverbial sow's ear!

In memory, I remembered an English phase talking about the relationship between purse and ear... but I could not remember the exact phrase... This must be the one!!

In Chinese, a phrase says "Embroidery on top of hemp made bag", probably carries the similar meaning.

But this base gun was not very bad one to begin with. It did not have serious rust nor pits, its edges were crisp, and its markings were clear. There are many C96s in much worse condition, probably more on "proverbial sow's ear" or "hemp made bag" side. Relatively speaking, this base gun in its original shape was not that bad at all.

[Olle]

Originally Posted by alvin

In memory, I remembered an English phase talking about the relationship between purse and ear... but I could not remember the exact phrase... This must be the one!!

In Chinese, a phrase says "Embroidery on top of hemp made bag", probably carries the similar meaning.

But this base gun was not very bad one to begin with. It did not have serious rust nor pits, its edges were crisp, and its markings were clear. There are many C96s in much worse condition, probably more on "proverbial sow's ear" or "hemp made bag" side. Relatively speaking, this base gun in its original shape was not that bad at all.

It wasn't too bad overall, but the grip frame was very rough. It was actually to the point where I thought I had to do a transplant to get it back in any workable condition. I didn't take any detail pictures before I started working on it, but the whole perimeter of the grips (including about 1/8" up on the sides) had to be TIG welded and filed back to the correct shape. That was the worst part, the rest just needed a few spot welds.

Anyway, it was an interesting excersise, haven't restored many "oldies" lately so I really enjoyed it. I found some .30 Mauser ammo at the show, so now I just need the springs and it will finally be time to shoot it.

[ithacaartist]

Originally Posted by alvin

In memory, I remembered an English phase talking about the relationship between purse and ear... but I could not remember the exact phrase... This must be the one!!

In Chinese, a phrase says "Embroidery on top of hemp made bag", probably carries the similar meaning.

A similar, more recent expression is "to put lipstick on a pig". Origin unknown, but lipstick first appeared around 1860. I recall hearing it during the elections four years ago (?).

Then there's the one about a wallet fashioned from the skin of a male pig's member--which turns into a suitcase when rubbed.

[Sergio Natali]

English saying: "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!"

[Sergio Natali]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

A similar, more recent expression is "to put lipstick on a pig". Origin unknown, but lipstick first appeared around 1860. I recall hearing it during the elections four years ago (?).

Then there's the one about a wallet fashioned from the skin of a male pig's member--which turns into a suitcase when rubbed.

David

Here we have a similar saying: "non puoi mettere una cravatta di seta ad un maiale" (you can't put a silk tie on a pig) meaning that a pig remains a pig and it's useless to waste a silk tie on it; the above English saying is more or less similar: you can't make something good out of something that is ​naturally ​bad.

Regards and have a nice Sunday.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by Olle

Update: Got it done this evening, just in time for the gun show tomorrow. I'll be selling guns together with a friend of mine, so I hope it will make people stop and look at our stuff.

This gun was pretty rough to begin with, and needed quite a bit of welding, filing, shaping etc. The grip frame was severely rusted, so the only thing I could do was to weld up the edges and call it a day. There's still pitting under the grips, but it should hopefully be in a more stable form now after being boiled and soaked in oil. The grips are repros from somewhere overseas, they needed a lot of massaging to fit and they are still not perfect, but at least they look decent.

I would like to thank Paladinpainter for his role in the project, he was gracious enough to send me his special bluing formula, and he also did some of the nitre bluing. The barrel was relined by Redman's, and all that's left now is to install a new recoil spring and it will be ready to test fire. I should have ordered that spring before I even started working on it, but....

Anyway, here she is:

Looks great. But remember the most important spring in a C96 is the main spring. The recoil spring just closes the bolt.

[alvin]

The springs and the bore are the most important.

Regarding the bore, there is an excellent example. This one:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=513564050

It's obviously not German, but buyer did not know that. He bought it, and found the bore is not ideal. Got angry:

"513564050
F Misrepresented the C96 I bought. Said it was a good shooter and had a good bore. Said on phone that it was a German Mauser. Was actually Chinese with terrible bore and ruined chamber. Don't trust him
Response: (left on 12/4/2015) Bought a $700 Mausher that only needs cleaning. Mauser address on pistol. Disgruntled! Select
tdh4570 A+(9)
Seller 11/30/2015 10:58 AM"

Seller suggested buyer to clean it... but the darn thing has already been cleaned into silver bright. The buyer definitely needs Redman or Closet service.

[alanint]

Doesn't the "stepped barrel" indicate a redone gun? I forget.

[kurusu]

Originally Posted by alanint

Doesn't the "stepped barrel" indicate a redone gun? I forget.

The stepped barrel just means it's a 1930 model.

[alvin]

Originally Posted by alanint

Doesn't the "stepped barrel" indicate a redone gun? I forget.

Above GB one?

No. German also has this type of stepped barrel on late variations, both M1930 and Schnellfeuer have stepped barrel.

But this one is not German. Buyer is correct, it's a Chinese copy. Most obvious sign is the "narrowing curb" on the magazine well, also, the trigger's shape & position is not German, the marking does not look being German, the grip size is smaller than German, etc. The barrel was better copied, but still does not look like a German, the area behind bolt stop is too narrow.

A Chinese copy is not necessarily being a bad one, but he wanted a German, so he felt he was cheated.

[Olle]

Originally Posted by alvin

A Chinese copy is not necessarily being a bad one, but he wanted a German, so he felt he was cheated.

I assume that Mauser parts won't necessarily fit either? That would render the gun useless as a shooter if something happens to break, or at least make for some long hours fitting new parts.

Really, with all those Chinese clones floating around, it would be helpful to have some kind of "buyer's guide" showing the typical differences. I have been very close to buying clones, but was saved from getting burned simply by finding anomalies like misspelled words or funky characters. For example, I have seen a few with fairly convincing stamps, but with a backwards "S" in "MAUSER". Those things are very easy to spot, but there may be more subtle differences that the novice won't notice until it's too late.

It doesn't have to be very complicated, just a side-by-side picture with arrows pointing out the typical differences. Anybody willing to do that?

[alvin]

Just back from range... had a new finding regarding ammo... but let's address that later.

The two most significant features on most Chinese C96 that I have met are these two:

1) On C96 magazine well design, the front of magazine is narrower. But the two rails on top of grip frame are parallel. To make the magazine well front narrower, Chinese copy is usually (but not always) different from that of German's.

2) Maybe it's not obvious on this particular picture, but Chinese C96 usually has either smaller grip (but bigger than German Bolo), or thinner grip panels. Asian's hand is smaller, holding a big grip is not comfortable.

Applying those two, you can tell most copies. Of course, there are other delta. But those are more variation specific. Use Large Ring as an example,

3) German Large Ring Hammer had short receiver rails. Chinese copy usually had long rails. Chinese actually copied German standard C96, but changed the hammer to a Large Ring Hammer.

4) The most copied safety lever functions like a German Standard C96. It's relatively rare to see Chinese copy has early safety, or M1930 style safety.

Of course, if apply s/n and feature correspondence, then, there are numerous minor detail difference. But by applying 1) and 2), you can tell at least 90% copies.

Finally, below German picture "borrowed" from gunbroker.com, it's a reblued gun with replaced grip panels. Probably a nice shooter. The Chinese picture "borrowed" from Morphy Auction, it's also a reblued gun (Morphy mis-identified it as Spanish). On small parts side, it not very rare to find German parts on Chinese copies.

[alvin]

Now, the new finding on ammo.

Back a few months ago, I bought a box of Fiocchi 7.63mm from a local dealer. It's much more expensive than PPU. I thought I would give it a try so I bought one box.

Fired them out today. I don't know you guys noticed or not -- many shooting videos on youtube.com indicated people had certain degree of difficulty to load C96 with clip -- when they pushed the ammo down into the magazine well, one or two round could roll out of the clip. That's very annoying.

I met this problem from time to time too. Never thought why... or, "may be these DWM steel clips become out of spec after being used many times??"

Today, I noticed the same clips could load Fiocchi without any issue. I fired all 50 rounds out, loaded the gun five times, and all worked well -- no cartridges fall out of rail. Then I went home and opened an original DWM 403 box (cost me $130 in today's market value) and retried, no issue either. Then, tried PPU, the problem appears.

So, the problem came from PPU cartridge. By visual, I cannot see the dimensional difference between these different brands of ammos. But the clip can tell.

[Norme]

"So, the problem came from PPU cartridge. By visual, I cannot see the dimensional difference between these different brands of ammos. But the clip can tell."

Alvin, have you actually tried taking measurements?
Norm

[alvin]

Originally Posted by Norme

"So, the problem came from PPU cartridge. By visual, I cannot see the dimensional difference between these different brands of ammos. But the clip can tell."

Alvin, have you actually tried taking measurements?
Norm

Unfortunately, no accurate measurement device in home yet.

===

[Edit] I just retried using empty Fiocchi cases and PPU cases (too dangerous to load live ammo at home, so use empty cases). This is repeatable. Fiocchi cases can always be loaded without issue. PPU cases almost always has one or two rounds falling out. Same "DWM" marked (BKIW made) clip, and same pistol.

[John Sabato]

Originally Posted by alvin

Unfortunately, no accurate measurement device in home yet.

Alvin keep your eye on Harbor Freight sales. They often offer digital calipers that are plenty close enough in accuracy for reloading work.

http://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-di...ngs-68304.html

[DonVoigt]

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Alvin keep your eye on Harbor Freight sales. They often offer digital calipers that are plenty close enough in accuracy for reloading work.

http://www.harborfreight.com/6-in-di...ngs-68304.html

And they only cost $20 or less.

[sheepherder]

Originally Posted by ithacaartist

Then there's the one about a wallet fashioned from the skin of a male pig's member--which turns into a suitcase when rubbed.

It's not often that I laugh out loud...Thanks for starting my Tuesday off with a bit of humor...

Alvin - I don't have PPU 7.63 Mauser, but I do have PPU "7.62mm Tokarev" [their box printing]...Instead of Mauser stripper clips, try M16 stripper clips...(But don't try Tokarev in Mauser)...

[Olle]

I had the camera and the photo tent set up today, so I decided to take some better pictures. I'm not entirely happy with the grips, but haven't been able to find any better. I might stain them a bit later to make them look old, but they will do as they are for now.

I have always wanted a nice C96 shooter, so I'm pretty happy with how it turned out overall. Also got a Bolo that needs some attention, so I guess that will be the next project. Might even convert that one to 9mm.