Breech Block Failure 1916/1920 Erfurt

Allen Brett · 01-17-2021, 05:30 PM

Hello,

I just picked this Luger up over the weekend. I disassembled the pistol and proceeded to clean, check all the parts, lubricate then re-assemble. All of the parts were numbers matching in excellent shape with a great bore and no issues other than standard exterior wear. I just came back from the range where I had fired 3 magazines of 124 grain factory "Blazer Brass" ammunition and noticed this when I went to clean it.

I see no other damage and it still cycles no problem. I assume old metal, probably not safe to shoot as is and I need a new breech block? No other damage was found and I did not notice anything unusual while I was firing the pistol. The block is matching to the gun and marked "57". Any input is appreciated, thank you.

Bill_in_VA · 01-17-2021, 06:58 PM

Ouch! It looks like you now have a steeply discounted shooter. This is a good reason why not to shoot a nice matching gun.

Tom Heller or any of a dozen other members ought to be able to hook you up with a new breech block. Best wishes.

lugerholsterrepair · 01-17-2021, 09:17 PM

Did you pick up your cartridge cases? Surprised with moving that much metal you didn't lose your extractor. Any other interior damage? Firing pin? Metal doesn't just get old. I would head back to the range and hope your brass is still there if you didn't pick it up. There will be one very interesting cartridge case. What does the bolt face look like?

STEINBVG · 01-17-2021, 10:19 PM

Apparently not even a hot ammo.

Manufacturer CCI Ammunition
Caliber 9mm Luger
Bullet Type Full Metal Jacket (FMJ)
Muzzle Velocity 1090 fps
Muzzle Energy 327 ft lbs
Primer Boxer
Casing Brass Casing

Wonder what went wrong.
Yep, would be interesting to see the cases and the bolt face.
Please post the pics

gunbugs · 01-18-2021, 01:33 AM

Bum case perhaps. Pressure tried to blow the extractor out of the top of the breechblock. In a perfect world, everything would be perfect. Not fond of "Blazer" ammo. The cheapest ammo typically gives the cheapest results.

Allen Brett · 01-18-2021, 09:18 AM

I picked up the brass and no issues. I pulled the block out and no damage to the face or the extractor. I have never had a problem with "Blazer Brass" in any of my other firearms. I did not feel anything like a hot load either.

Allen Brett · 01-18-2021, 09:20 AM

Thank you, at least the extractor has no damage.

DonVoigt · 01-18-2021, 09:58 AM

Metal fatigue, been getting "worse" for over 100 years and finally gave up.
No "damage" to the extractor would confirm this was no "overload" situation.

The thin shelves that hold the extractor in place are the most common failure of a breech bolt,
and the only one I have seen- other than perhaps an enlarged hole for the striker nose.

There are plenty of breech blocks around now- some new and recent imports from Germany.

mrerick · 01-18-2021, 10:11 AM

Wouldn't that damage require high pressure gas behind the case head before the toggle unlocked?

Pierced primer?

What does the tip of the firing pin look like? How far does it protrude from the breech face?

If it was dry fired a lot without anything to stop the firing pin, it may have opened up the firing pin hole in the breech face.

Allen Brett · 01-18-2021, 10:33 AM

I am posting all of the requested photos. I apologize up front for any quality issues and or operator issues. I am trying to respond to people however, it appears the response just shows up in no particular order and not to whom I responded? Thanks again for all of the help.

Allen Brett · 01-18-2021, 10:35 AM

Photos part 2.

HerrKaiser · 01-18-2021, 11:05 AM

You have a lot of pierced, or at the very least extremely hard hit, primers in the spent brass.

Lugerdoc · 01-18-2021, 11:17 AM

Allen et al, I do have a good supply of exc condition WW1 or 2 original serialized breech blocks @$100 each or new unmarked ones @$90 + $10 US priority S&h for either. TH

DonVoigt · 01-18-2021, 12:24 PM

I don't see any pierced primers.

HerrKaiser · 01-18-2021, 12:42 PM

Could just be the blurring of the picture. But those primers seem to be dented awfully deep from the firing pin impact.

Allen Brett · 01-18-2021, 12:53 PM

I checked all of the primers with a magnifying glass for any that may have been pierced and found none. The photo is not real good and compared to the primer strikes on the brass from one of my modern 9mm pistols there is no real difference.

Edward Tinker · 01-18-2021, 01:13 PM

no offense, but do you have a before picture? Perhaps it was already damaged and just blew it out further...

I personally have blown out two breechblocks, but both were the rear and using too hot of ammo.

Ed

spangy · 01-18-2021, 01:21 PM

We have seen this kind of damaged breech before.
https://i.imgur.com/SBA4Zvv.png

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ghlight=damage

rhuff · 01-18-2021, 02:41 PM

I blew out one breechblock, but like Ed, it was to the rear.

Allen Brett · 01-18-2021, 03:40 PM

Thank you everyone for all of the information. Regardless of what caused the damage it looks like I need a new block and I have sent a message to Tom Heller to see if he has one marked "57".

01-17-2021, 05:30 PM	#1
Allen Brett User Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Central Wyoming, USA Posts: 49 Thanks: 78 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	Breech Block Failure 1916/1920 Erfurt Hello, I just picked this Luger up over the weekend. I disassembled the pistol and proceeded to clean, check all the parts, lubricate then re-assemble. All of the parts were numbers matching in excellent shape with a great bore and no issues other than standard exterior wear. I just came back from the range where I had fired 3 magazines of 124 grain factory "Blazer Brass" ammunition and noticed this when I went to clean it. I see no other damage and it still cycles no problem. I assume old metal, probably not safe to shoot as is and I need a new breech block? No other damage was found and I did not notice anything unusual while I was firing the pistol. The block is matching to the gun and marked "57". Any input is appreciated, thank you. Attached Thumbnails

01-17-2021, 06:58 PM	#2
Bill_in_VA User Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Southwest Virginia Posts: 343 Thanks: 731 Thanked 470 Times in 178 Posts	Ouch! It looks like you now have a steeply discounted shooter. This is a good reason why not to shoot a nice matching gun. Tom Heller or any of a dozen other members ought to be able to hook you up with a new breech block. Best wishes. __________________ John 8:32 reive (riːv) vb (Military) (intr) dialect Scot and Northern English to go on a plundering raid [variant of reave] ˈreiver n e.g., " Some view the Border Reivers as loveable rogues."

01-17-2021, 09:17 PM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Did you pick up your cartridge cases? Surprised with moving that much metal you didn't lose your extractor. Any other interior damage? Firing pin? Metal doesn't just get old. I would head back to the range and hope your brass is still there if you didn't pick it up. There will be one very interesting cartridge case. What does the bolt face look like? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

01-18-2021, 09:58 AM	#8
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	Metal fatigue, been getting "worse" for over 100 years and finally gave up. No "damage" to the extractor would confirm this was no "overload" situation. The thin shelves that hold the extractor in place are the most common failure of a breech bolt, and the only one I have seen- other than perhaps an enlarged hole for the striker nose. There are plenty of breech blocks around now- some new and recent imports from Germany. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

01-18-2021, 10:11 AM	#9
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Wouldn't that damage require high pressure gas behind the case head before the toggle unlocked? Pierced primer? What does the tip of the firing pin look like? How far does it protrude from the breech face? If it was dry fired a lot without anything to stop the firing pin, it may have opened up the firing pin hole in the breech face. __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

01-17-2021, 10:19 PM	#4
STEINBVG User Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: NEW JERSEY Posts: 143 Thanks: 117 Thanked 176 Times in 70 Posts	Apparently not even a hot ammo. Manufacturer CCI Ammunition Caliber 9mm Luger Bullet Type Full Metal Jacket (FMJ) Muzzle Velocity 1090 fps Muzzle Energy 327 ft lbs Primer Boxer Casing Brass Casing Wonder what went wrong. Yep, would be interesting to see the cases and the bolt face. Please post the pics

01-18-2021, 01:33 AM	#5
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 635 Thanks: 335 Thanked 1,139 Times in 377 Posts	Bum case perhaps. Pressure tried to blow the extractor out of the top of the breechblock. In a perfect world, everything would be perfect. Not fond of "Blazer" ammo. The cheapest ammo typically gives the cheapest results.

01-18-2021, 09:18 AM	#6
Allen Brett User Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Central Wyoming, USA Posts: 49 Thanks: 78 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	I picked up the brass and no issues. I pulled the block out and no damage to the face or the extractor. I have never had a problem with "Blazer Brass" in any of my other firearms. I did not feel anything like a hot load either.

01-18-2021, 09:20 AM	#7
Allen Brett User Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Central Wyoming, USA Posts: 49 Thanks: 78 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	Thank you, at least the extractor has no damage.

01-18-2021, 10:33 AM	#10
Allen Brett User Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Central Wyoming, USA Posts: 49 Thanks: 78 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	I am posting all of the requested photos. I apologize up front for any quality issues and or operator issues. I am trying to respond to people however, it appears the response just shows up in no particular order and not to whom I responded? Thanks again for all of the help. Attached Thumbnails

01-18-2021, 10:35 AM	#11
Allen Brett User Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Central Wyoming, USA Posts: 49 Thanks: 78 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	Photos part 2. Attached Thumbnails

01-18-2021, 11:05 AM	#12
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 800 Thanks: 750 Thanked 793 Times in 376 Posts	You have a lot of pierced, or at the very least extremely hard hit, primers in the spent brass. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

01-18-2021, 11:17 AM	#13
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	Allen et al, I do have a good supply of exc condition WW1 or 2 original serialized breech blocks @$100 each or new unmarked ones @$90 + $10 US priority S&h for either. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

01-18-2021, 12:24 PM	#14
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	I don't see any pierced primers. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

01-18-2021, 12:42 PM	#15
HerrKaiser User Join Date: Feb 2018 Location: South Carolina Posts: 800 Thanks: 750 Thanked 793 Times in 376 Posts	Could just be the blurring of the picture. But those primers seem to be dented awfully deep from the firing pin impact. __________________ -QM Looking for Mauser S/42 toggle train #22

01-18-2021, 12:53 PM	#16
Allen Brett User Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Central Wyoming, USA Posts: 49 Thanks: 78 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	I checked all of the primers with a magnifying glass for any that may have been pierced and found none. The photo is not real good and compared to the primer strikes on the brass from one of my modern 9mm pistols there is no real difference.

01-18-2021, 01:13 PM	#17
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	no offense, but do you have a before picture? Perhaps it was already damaged and just blew it out further... I personally have blown out two breechblocks, but both were the rear and using too hot of ammo. Ed __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

01-18-2021, 01:21 PM	#18
spangy Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Winnipeg, Canada Posts: 607 Thanks: 2,984 Thanked 1,047 Times in 422 Posts	We have seen this kind of damaged breech before. https://i.imgur.com/SBA4Zvv.png http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...ghlight=damage __________________ Whoever said that "money can't buy you happiness" never bought a Luger. WTB - Take Down Lever & Trigger Plate (#90) for an Imperial Artillery.

01-18-2021, 02:41 PM	#19
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	I blew out one breechblock, but like Ed, it was to the rear. __________________ Need DWM breechblock #21

01-18-2021, 03:40 PM	#20
Allen Brett User Join Date: Nov 2017 Location: Central Wyoming, USA Posts: 49 Thanks: 78 Thanked 26 Times in 13 Posts	Thank you everyone for all of the information. Regardless of what caused the damage it looks like I need a new block and I have sent a message to Tom Heller to see if he has one marked "57".