"When opportunity knocks!!!"

G.T. · 03-13-2017, 11:28 AM

Hi To all, OK, here's the deal..... I have just contacted a company that makes front sight blades and has been it the business for many decades.. They have informed me that they will run a minimum quantity of Luger front sight blades for me, at two additional heights? all I have to do is submit a print, and also determine what blade height we (we meaning me and my Luger forum family!..

) would require and /or desire?... I have the standard blade print and sample... If anyone on the forum has any knowledge or suggestion on the subject, NOW is the time to speak / step up.. as the opportunity to get a large manufacture mess around with such a small quantity doesn't happen very often if ever?... So, your homework assignment is, what are the three sight heights desired? 1) standard 2)_______? 3)______?
So, come on guys... let's see if we can pull this off. They will be offered for sale at Luger Docs as are all GT Specialties offerings...

.. best to all, til....lat'r.....GT

DavidJayUden · 03-13-2017, 12:52 PM

I know I've been squawking about this issue for a long time, but i fear that my needs are so far outside of the norm that they would benefit no one else. I just measured the front sight on my Navy, (it is a "tall K98 sight" by the way) and it goes right at .398" tall from the bottom of the dovetail to upper tip. And the gun STILL prints a bit high. Someday I may buy a ridiculously tall sight blank and start working it down.
dju

ithacaartist · 03-13-2017, 01:08 PM

If need is sufficient for them, one size that is designed to be "worked down" to what's required might be worth considering. It's easier to remove excess material then it is to "stretch" a piece.

G.T. · 03-13-2017, 06:33 PM

Yes, I've considered that... but the trick is to make the increments that are the most, "usable" for the majority of shooters needs... as in, starting with the basic blade, should the next size be .030" or .050" next?, next? etc. etc. That's where experience comes in.... First, we need to measure and / or find out what was originally offered?... Measure your navy and arty. sights and let's start there?... measure from tallest part of the blade to the top of the sight block, as barrel dia. differs and is not a reliable benchmark... Let's go guys, calipers and numbers!!!!!

.....best to all, til....lat'r....GT

DonVoigt · 03-13-2017, 08:33 PM

GT,
I just measured some blades, top of blade to sight block.

4" average 0.200 and some 0.220
45/8" .30 cal- is 0.180

Artillery - 0.205

Navy - 0.205

A guy that wanted to calculate how much 1/1000 at the front sight would move the point of impact at some yardage- could do that if he were so inclined. I'm not!

The very tall sight on my 5" bull is 0.370 and would be as tall as anyone could realistically use, IMO.

If you had "tall" sights of 0.250, 0.300, and 0.350 made; that would cover any eventuality, again JMHO.

ithacaartist · 03-13-2017, 08:46 PM

1917 Arty ~0.20" from top of block to top of blade...same for a 1917 P.08, although the barrel was probably depot-replaced after WWI to create it from an Arty.

DavidJayUden · 03-13-2017, 09:43 PM

It appears that we are measuring in 2 different fashions.
The tall sight in the Navy measures .398" overall height from the bottom of the dovetail to the very top of the blade. Measuring from the top of the blade down to the top of the dovetail measures right at .285".
And it could stand to be just a bit taller to bring the POI down a bit.
dju

G.T. · 03-13-2017, 10:00 PM

Hi David, that is really tall!!!..

..... But, if you want, I think I could modify one of the Mauser custom sight blades by hand? I would make it into a luger profile barleycorn and you'd be set to go?... We would / could, have anything below .370 as Don mentioned below?... best to you, til...lat'r...GT....

DonVoigt · 03-14-2017, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

It appears that we are measuring in 2 different fashions.
The tall sight in the Navy measures .398" overall height from the bottom of the dovetail to the very top of the blade. Measuring from the top of the blade down to the top of the dovetail measures right at .285".
And it could stand to be just a bit taller to bring the POI down a bit.
dju

Yes, two reference points; GT asked that we measure from the top of the blade to the top of the ramp- i.e. the top of the dove tail.

GT-
The luger drawings show the height of the blade in both ways of measurement. Converted to inches the way you asked for the measurement is : 0.20 to 0.213 in.

The drawing would be suitable for the mfg to use, though changes would need to be made for the height increase.

G.T. · 03-14-2017, 12:12 PM

Hi Don, I've measure several standard 4" originals and they fall easily into that .200" to .220" range... I was thinking .225" for my standard blade, .250" for the next increment... and .300" for the tall, tall blade? If I made them sharp enough at the inverted "V" part, it would be relatively easy to slightly shorten any or all if situation demands?... For some reason, a lot of the custom barrels have needed a .250+ blade height to be on zero?..

..... keep the measurements coming guys... we're still straddling the fence on final dimensional decisions....

...GT

DonVoigt · 03-14-2017, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G.T.

Hi Don, I've measure several standard 4" originals and they fall easily into that .200" to .220" range... I was thinking .225" for my standard blade, .250" for the next increment... and .300" for the tall, tall blade? If I made them sharp enough at the inverted "V" part, it would be relatively easy to slightly shorten any or all if situation demands?... For some reason, a lot of the custom barrels have needed a .250+ blade height to be on zero?..

..... keep the measurements coming guys... we're still straddling the fence on final dimensional decisions....

...GT

Sounds reasonable, I did not realize you wanted to make a "normal" sight too!

If you can get them to make 4 sizes- I'd add the taller one of 0.350, as it is needed if one uses and adjustable rear sight.

With filing, the 4 should cover any and all needs, JMHO.

Robert in NC · 03-15-2017, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonVoigt

GT,

A guy that wanted to calculate how much 1/1000 at the front sight would move the point of impact at some yardage- could do that if he were so inclined. I'm not!

.

I'm that guy. For a Luger with a 4 inch barrel a change in height of the front sight of 1/1000 inch will change the point of impact by 0.22 inches at 50 yards.

G.T. · 03-15-2017, 02:09 PM

So, ...each .025" will result in approx. 5.5" of change at 50?..... Now there's a whole'nother'dog in the fight!

... Would it be half that at 25 yards? Good job Don & Robert.... Keep thinking and pondering... it's helping me make a decision...

...GT

gunbugs · 03-15-2017, 05:10 PM

The formula is simple, sight radius x error on target, divided by distance to target,all measurements in inches. This tells you how much to move the sight.

DonVoigt · 03-15-2017, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gunbugs

The formula is simple, sight radius x error on target, divided by distance to target,all measurements in inches. This tells you how much to move the sight.

I did not mean to imply it was not simple, just that I was lazy!

Rick W. · 03-15-2017, 06:52 PM

Are we sure of the 50yd and 0.22" on a 4" with 0.001" increment?

naturally, tis only a theoretical line of sight calculation. 9mm drops like a rock past 50yds in reality.

DonVoigt · 03-15-2017, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Are we sure of the 50yd and 0.22" on a 4" with 0.001" increment?

naturally, tis only a theoretical line of sight calculation. 9mm drops like a rock past 50yds in reality.

Why don't you double check the calculation?
I find empirically that these heights would be ok.

Also, a 9mm(and all other rounds) drop just like a rock from the time they leave the muzzle!

Rick W. · 03-15-2017, 08:38 PM

I did a calculation the old fashioned way and got a nominal 0.225" at 25yds, then tried the 50 yds, got double that as one might think. 4 inch barrel, with 0.001" offset. This only has the barrel length and not the barrel length plus action length to rear sight.........ie sight radius, which as most knows, varies with model.

I then tried the parameters in this Brownell's software set, no familiarization with this piece of software; first time to try it.

http://www.brownells.com/GunTech/Sig....htm?lid=13093

G.T. is going to put out some bucks for this, just wanting to make sure he got the right stuff. Only asking someone mathematical to double check.........if I am wrong, I am sorry; but my home brew approach and the software above agree. Plug in the numbers and see if you agree or not.

I have no dog in the fight on what to offer as to sight heights. Only inquiring about the theoretical calculation. I have moved on to adjustable rear sights and even scope bases on my Lugers now.

Someone will appreciate the availability of front sights again, I am sure. The old Marble's 27 was a nice sight for some applications, but not produced for a while now.

My best to G.T.'s offering.

ithacaartist · 03-15-2017, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Are we sure of the 50yd and 0.22" on a 4" with 0.001" increment?

naturally, tis only a theoretical line of sight calculation. 9mm drops like a rock past 50yds in reality.

Hah! 9mm does indeed drop exactly like a rock! But then again, so does every other caliber! Galileo demonstrated as such around 1590. Velocity is the only variable in this case.

Rick W. · 03-15-2017, 09:52 PM

I reckon the comment on dropping like a rock after 50 yds, suggests that 50yds might be considered a maximum yardage for iron sight height for the Luger. That is really all was intended.

I thought your comment on the single tall height sight was a good one; offers something to everyone with minimum outlay. One have to consider such an offering being in competition with the 98 sight or a guy with tooling to add metal and rework.

Speed of course is one of the parameters. I agree. but getting off track some here. I have no doubt that GT will think it all out; he is a contributor.

03-13-2017, 11:28 AM	#1
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	"When opportunity knocks!!!" Hi To all, OK, here's the deal..... I have just contacted a company that makes front sight blades and has been it the business for many decades.. They have informed me that they will run a minimum quantity of Luger front sight blades for me, at two additional heights? all I have to do is submit a print, and also determine what blade height we (we meaning me and my Luger forum family!..) would require and /or desire?... I have the standard blade print and sample... If anyone on the forum has any knowledge or suggestion on the subject, NOW is the time to speak / step up.. as the opportunity to get a large manufacture mess around with such a small quantity doesn't happen very often if ever?... So, your homework assignment is, what are the three sight heights desired? 1) standard 2)_______? 3)______? So, come on guys... let's see if we can pull this off. They will be offered for sale at Luger Docs as are all GT Specialties offerings... .. best to all, til....lat'r.....GT

03-13-2017, 01:08 PM	#3
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,282 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	If need is sufficient for them, one size that is designed to be "worked down" to what's required might be worth considering. It's easier to remove excess material then it is to "stretch" a piece. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

03-13-2017, 06:33 PM	#4
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	increments? Yes, I've considered that... but the trick is to make the increments that are the most, "usable" for the majority of shooters needs... as in, starting with the basic blade, should the next size be .030" or .050" next?, next? etc. etc. That's where experience comes in.... First, we need to measure and / or find out what was originally offered?... Measure your navy and arty. sights and let's start there?... measure from tallest part of the blade to the top of the sight block, as barrel dia. differs and is not a reliable benchmark... Let's go guys, calipers and numbers!!!!! .....best to all, til....lat'r....GT

03-13-2017, 08:33 PM	#5
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	GT, I just measured some blades, top of blade to sight block. 4" average 0.200 and some 0.220 45/8" .30 cal- is 0.180 Artillery - 0.205 Navy - 0.205 A guy that wanted to calculate how much 1/1000 at the front sight would move the point of impact at some yardage- could do that if he were so inclined. I'm not! The very tall sight on my 5" bull is 0.370 and would be as tall as anyone could realistically use, IMO. If you had "tall" sights of 0.250, 0.300, and 0.350 made; that would cover any eventuality, again JMHO. __________________ 03man(Don Voigt); Luger student and collector. Looking for DWM side plate: 69 ; Dreyse 1907 pistol K.S. Gendarmerie

03-13-2017, 08:46 PM	#6
ithacaartist Twice a Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atop the highest hill in Schuyler County NY Posts: 3,282 Thanks: 7,007 Thanked 2,476 Times in 1,319 Posts	1917 Arty ~0.20" from top of block to top of blade...same for a 1917 P.08, although the barrel was probably depot-replaced after WWI to create it from an Arty. __________________ "... Liberty is the seed and soil, the air and light, the dew and rain of progress, love and joy."-- Robert Greene Ingersoll 1894

03-13-2017, 12:52 PM	#2
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	I know I've been squawking about this issue for a long time, but i fear that my needs are so far outside of the norm that they would benefit no one else. I just measured the front sight on my Navy, (it is a "tall K98 sight" by the way) and it goes right at .398" tall from the bottom of the dovetail to upper tip. And the gun STILL prints a bit high. Someday I may buy a ridiculously tall sight blank and start working it down. dju

03-13-2017, 09:43 PM	#7
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	It appears that we are measuring in 2 different fashions. The tall sight in the Navy measures .398" overall height from the bottom of the dovetail to the very top of the blade. Measuring from the top of the blade down to the top of the dovetail measures right at .285". And it could stand to be just a bit taller to bring the POI down a bit. dju

03-13-2017, 10:00 PM	#8
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	tallest? Hi David, that is really tall!!!....... But, if you want, I think I could modify one of the Mauser custom sight blades by hand? I would make it into a luger profile barleycorn and you'd be set to go?... We would / could, have anything below .370 as Don mentioned below?... best to you, til...lat'r...GT....

03-14-2017, 12:12 PM	#10
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	height variations? Hi Don, I've measure several standard 4" originals and they fall easily into that .200" to .220" range... I was thinking .225" for my standard blade, .250" for the next increment... and .300" for the tall, tall blade? If I made them sharp enough at the inverted "V" part, it would be relatively easy to slightly shorten any or all if situation demands?... For some reason, a lot of the custom barrels have needed a .250+ blade height to be on zero?....... keep the measurements coming guys... we're still straddling the fence on final dimensional decisions.......GT

03-15-2017, 02:09 PM	#13
G.T. Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Chandler Arizona Posts: 3,485 Thanks: 1,283 Thanked 3,581 Times in 989 Posts	so.......if that's so... So, ...each .025" will result in approx. 5.5" of change at 50?..... Now there's a whole'nother'dog in the fight! ... Would it be half that at 25 yards? Good job Don & Robert.... Keep thinking and pondering... it's helping me make a decision... ...GT

03-15-2017, 05:10 PM	#14
gunbugs Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Fairbanks, Alaska. Home of the best moose. Posts: 635 Thanks: 335 Thanked 1,139 Times in 377 Posts	The formula is simple, sight radius x error on target, divided by distance to target,all measurements in inches. This tells you how much to move the sight.

03-15-2017, 06:52 PM	#16
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	Are we sure of the 50yd and 0.22" on a 4" with 0.001" increment? naturally, tis only a theoretical line of sight calculation. 9mm drops like a rock past 50yds in reality.

03-15-2017, 08:38 PM	#18
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	I did a calculation the old fashioned way and got a nominal 0.225" at 25yds, then tried the 50 yds, got double that as one might think. 4 inch barrel, with 0.001" offset. This only has the barrel length and not the barrel length plus action length to rear sight.........ie sight radius, which as most knows, varies with model. I then tried the parameters in this Brownell's software set, no familiarization with this piece of software; first time to try it. http://www.brownells.com/GunTech/Sig....htm?lid=13093 G.T. is going to put out some bucks for this, just wanting to make sure he got the right stuff. Only asking someone mathematical to double check.........if I am wrong, I am sorry; but my home brew approach and the software above agree. Plug in the numbers and see if you agree or not. I have no dog in the fight on what to offer as to sight heights. Only inquiring about the theoretical calculation. I have moved on to adjustable rear sights and even scope bases on my Lugers now. Someone will appreciate the availability of front sights again, I am sure. The old Marble's 27 was a nice sight for some applications, but not produced for a while now. My best to G.T.'s offering. Last edited by Rick W.; 03-15-2017 at 09:33 PM.

03-15-2017, 09:52 PM	#20
Rick W. User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 339 Thanks: 81 Thanked 359 Times in 198 Posts	I reckon the comment on dropping like a rock after 50 yds, suggests that 50yds might be considered a maximum yardage for iron sight height for the Luger. That is really all was intended. I thought your comment on the single tall height sight was a good one; offers something to everyone with minimum outlay. One have to consider such an offering being in competition with the 98 sight or a guy with tooling to add metal and rework. Speed of course is one of the parameters. I agree. but getting off track some here. I have no doubt that GT will think it all out; he is a contributor.