Possible serial number fraud on Auction Arms

This is why I come to the forum, this type of information is not only interesting, but great to hear and learn.


ed

[John Sabato]

Bill, I hope you don't mind me sharing your email-- so that others have a basis for comparison with their own Lugers...


Bill's email:


Hello John,

I looked at your post with interest and decided to look at all of my Imperial stuff to see if they were all round or some of them had the noticable line on the frame and if the frame rails stuck out at all.


I looked at 16 complete rigs ( 4 inch models) that I knew were all original and un-messed with and found two that looked the same as the ones in your picture. These were late guns with dates of 1917 and 1918 (both DWM's) and

a 1915 with the line lower down.


Some of the Erfurts had a kind of line, but they were not as pronounced as the 3 DWM's above.


Next I looked at my Imperial Navy's and found all had a rounded frame.


Next I looked at the Artillery models and found again, that the 1914 Erfurt model had a slight cut and the rails did stick out a touch. The 1917 and 1918 DWM's had very pronounced cuts on the frame, like the one in your

picture.


I never mentioned anything about the frame being cut flat before, but was sure that it is normal on some models, and now I'm convinced that the later DWM's did not all have the rounded frame. Both of my 1917 and 1918's in both 4 inch and 8 inch models have the cut or flat frame with the serial

number and suffix if present. My guns are all original and I'm sure they have not been messed with.


I think we have to look at this farther before we say that if the frame looks shaved, it has been messed with, as that is not the case with my late DWM Lugers.


Be glad to share more information with you if possible. Thanks --- bill


--------------and my reply:


Nice to know someone with as many reference Lugers as you have Bill. Please define what you mean by sticking out a "touch"... the photo I posted looks like at least a sixteenth of an inch. I can accept some wear in the lockup for pistols this old, but that much protrusion combined with my other observations still leads me to believe that this one has been altered.


How did you find the image of the stamped serial number? did it look typical compared to your collection? Do your DWM's of similar vintage have the same type of font used for the number stamps as the one in the photo? Lastly, since I do not keep any serial number lists, can you confirm that the serial number/suffix in the photo is in the proper range for a DWM Artillery in 1917?


Having been burned once (many years ago) on an altered luger frame, I am VERY cautious about this particular aspect of the originality of serial numbers.


BTW, I appreciate the off-line communication, but I believe that the rest of the group (especially the new guys) benefits from discussions such as this... I don't mind being wrong in public, and the more of the knowledgeable Lugerites out there that contribute will help to bring a community consensus to whatever the conclusion is...


---------------------------for the benefit of all here on the forum, here is the last exchange between bill m and I, my question to Bill is in CAPS in the middle of his reply. I have asked him to please continue the exchange here on the forum for all to see:


Hi John,

The M is in the correct suffix range for a 1917 Artillery. My 1917

Artillery is in the no suffix block, and my 1918 Artillery is in the A

suffix. Both of these have the shaved frame with the 1918 very pronounced.

This was a direct vet purchase with one matching magazine and a matching

stock. The 1914 Erfurt Artillery had the rails sticking out just a touch.


As far as the serial numbers go, depending on the die, if it was new or

used, and how hard it was struck, the serial numbers can look different from

gun to gun. To me, if the frame had been shaved to put on a different

serial number or letter suffix, the suffix would have been put on below the

cut on the flatter portion of the frame and not directly on the cut. iF THE GRINDING OPERATION DID NOT REMOVE ALL OF THE LETTER SUFFIX, THEN THE FORGER WOULD BE OBLIGED TO MAKE THE EXISTING LETTER AS NORMAL LOOKING AS POSSIBLE. I QUESTION THE UNIFORMITY OF THE LETTER SUFFIX STAMP SINCE IT IS ON A SURFACE THAT IS NOT UNIFORM... If I

saw one that I had a question about and it was not partly on the cut, I

would be suspicious. Without looking at the gun in person it is hard to be

100 percent sure, but the wear and the shaving and serial numbers and

especially the M suffix looks normal to me. If I can try to answer anymore

questions, please don't hesitate to ask, and I'll give you my opinion.

Thanks -- bill

----------------------------------------------

Let's hear from all you Luger experts and collectors out there!


-regards,


John

[John Sabato]

and the cannon does not protrude beyond the frame when assembled... just thought you would like to know for comparison purposes with your collection data.


-John

John ;

Do I Detect a different finish on the flat above the "m" than on the radius below thew "m" ?

I'm calling attention to the ground finish having considerable evidence of "grit strike lines" (closely spaced parallel scratches of highly similar scratches that appear in ground surfaces caused by loose trapped grits in the grinding wheel unevenly striking the surface being ground.

I can see no evidence of this anywhere else in the photo.

Just my observation, I do not know if it means anything.

ViggoG

[bill m]

Hi John,

Looked again at my 1914 Artillery and it has a very slight ridge just below the serial number, as did the majority of the Erfurt 4 inch guns in the later years. These are not competely round, but there is a line when tipped just right and you can actually feel it with your finger. These are not anything like the very pronounced lines on the DWM 1917's and 1918's. The rails on the 1914 Erfurt stuck out enough that your fingernail would catch it, and when tipped upright, you could see that they were not perfectly flush, but protruded outwards just slightly. I think these are all just normal production traits with just different tolerances.

[Kyrie]

Hi Folks!


Even assuming the piece is exactly as described, it's still over priced by at least $700 :-(


Best regards,


Kyrie

John;

What I referred to in my prior post, might be some of that pixel magic called "moire interferrence". But there is a definate difference in the corner radius, to the left of, below and above the "D" arrow.

The portion of the corner rounding below the "D" is smooth and polished much finer than above the "D".

This appears to apply to all of that portion of the frame that would have to have the radius restored if the frame were shortened slightly after the innitial finishing and polishing.

I would bet on it having been shortened.

When ? Where ? Who Knows ?

ViggoG

[Johnny Peppers]

The pistol just isn't that nice. Had the frame been ground down to remove the original serial number and suffix, the frame would have required refinishing which would then require that everything else be refinished. Anyone with the letter suffix dies would certainly be heavy into faking and refinishing would have been required to make his efforts pay off. Just my opinion, but I believe the pistol is correct but way overpriced.

[Marvin]

John,


I finally got home for the weekend from the "Swamp" and I took a look at my Artillery Luger to see if it had a step.


My Luger is a 1917 dated Artillery in the "f" suffix range. The frame and slide are even, so it has not been "shaved". There is a definite line where the frame was not completely rounded. The "f" suffix is partly on the flat on partly on the rounded surface. The letter has good depth all over, even on the rounded area.


Marvin

[BILL]