Work and Valuation

[Dwight Gruber]

As a buyer of low-priced Lugers, I am beset, as are many of us, it seems, by the question, "what is this gun actually worth?" I have before me an example which may prove instructive, and I am curioius about everyone's reactions.


The gun is a DWM 1920 Commercial, .30 caliber 3 3/4" barrel, all matching. It has been reblued, looks like the grips are original. Its not really a shooter, because the chamber is worn in such a way that it allows the brass to 'belly out' a little bit on one side, which is probably unsafe in addition to not extracting properly. The magazine catch is extremely worn (looks like it may have been filed a bit), and lets the magazine slip a bit, not letting shells feed properly.


I suppose the question is, what level of armory work to restore functionality increases the value of such a piece (if any does), and what decreases it?


Does replacing a faulty part, the magazine button (not numbered, in this version) count against its value?


What about replacing a faulty barrel? Does relining an existing barrel retain more value than replacement?


Or, does such a gun retain the most value by staying unchanged, a wall-hanger?


This doesn't, of course, address the issue that any such work is likely to cost more than the gun is actually "worth", making this kind of effort simply a labor of love.

[Kyrie]

Hi Dwight,


A Luger may have two different types of value; collector value and shooter value.


To have collector value a Luger must be all original (as indicated by matching numbers), not refinished, and have at least about 60% original blue. If a Luger meets this minimal tests, then its collector value is determined by its condition and to which variation it belongs.


A mismatched Luger, or a Luger that has been refinished, has no collector value. It doesnâ??t matter how mismatched it may be, or how many times it has been refinished.


To have shooter value a Luger must be mechanically sound, including having a shootable bore. â??Shootable boreâ?� means enough rifling left to produce groups rather than a shotgun pattern on the target.


The Luger you describe has neither collector value nor shooter value. To restore some shooter value all of its mechanical ills would need to be repaired. For the specific Luger mentioned, this work may be extensive. A chamber defect like the one described can be the result of a dangerously over-pressure cartridge. This cartridge may have cracked the breechblock, the barrel extension, and the frame in addition to stretching out the chamber. This Luger is a wall hanger, and a money pit to try and fix :-(


Hope this helps some!


Best regards,


Kyrie

Kyrie has done a fine job of explaining the "classic" definitions of "collector" and "shooter" Lugers. Let me also say that I have numerous times seen him help out other collectors, including novice collectors, on the LugerForum and elsewhere over the years. I very much appreciate the information and photos he has shared with me.


Definitions are only valid for those who accept them. When a majority of a given group choose not to accept a given definition, the definition is not valid for that group. Kyrie wrote "A mismatched Luger, or a Luger that has been refinished, has no collector value. It doesnâ??t matter how mismatched it may be, or how many times it has been refinished."


On 12/18/01 he wrote "Actually itâ??s taking a $300 shooter and making it look like a $1200 collector grade gun." On 1/23/02 he wrote "Refinished, value about $250 - $300. "Refinished, value about $250 - $400.


Reading this kind of thing, a novice collector could assume than an expert has stated that reblued "shooters" are worth only $250 and mismatched (by only one part) "shooters" are worth only $300."


In a friendly and intellectual way, I take issue with these definitions and values. Certainly they are valid for Kyrie as an individual. Probably they are valid for that group of collectors who collect only all original, all matching, 98 percent or better Lugers. But I seriously question the fact that they are valid for the group composed of people who have purchased Lugers in the last 30 years. I suspect they are not valid for the majority of LugerForum members.


Some will doubtless be saddened to hear that their otherwise pristine Lugers which have mismatched magazines are only worth $300. Thor would be saddened to learn that his refinished works of art are worth only $250. The lucky one who has a 1918 Spandau Luger with a mismatched firing pin would probably be upset to learn that it is worth only $300.


Take heart, fellow Lugerites! The true value of a Luger is what you can sell it for. Also, if you have a Luger you would not take $700 for, the value of that Luger to you is in excess of $700. You have just as much right to decide on your own valuation system as does Kyrie or anyone else.


As far as true value goes, I hereby promise to buy all the complete, functional, original finish Lugers I am offered for $300 each. I hereby promise to buy all the complete, functional, refinished Lugers I am offered for $250 each.


My major problem with the "classic" definitions is that those who collect only "perfect" Lugers tend, either consciously or unconsciously, to create a class consciousness among collectors. You are either a "real Luger collector" (sometimes called "advanced") or else you are just some guy that has some junk mixed parts (or reblued) shooter Lugers. I don't care for that attitude in gun collecting and I don't care for that same attitude in other areas of life. That's just my personal prejudice.

[Dok]

and say this looks like the beginning of the perennial emotional arguement over "collectible" vs "shooter". This arguemnet has no answer... it cannot be resolved. Both sides have valid positions (Dwight and Bill, please read the Forum Decorum document), and all that happens is that everyone jumps in with their two cent worth! (Dwight you're forgiven because you're new).


I own a shooter Luger (a Ted Green TDJ) that cost me $800 by the time it was finished. It certainly isn't worth $300 (Bill's point) and it certainly has no collector value, (Kyrie's point) and there you have it. There is no answer that suits everyone! It's like posing the question; "If you believe that God is omnipotent, could he create a rock so heavy, that even he couldn't lift it".


Very little can be said on this this topic that hasn't been said before, and all that is likely to happen is that tempers will flair, and we will all act very badly. So let's just pass on this one OK? Don't make me kill the thread.


Dok (Webmaster)

Any Luger, if it has a decent pair of grips and only a handful of salvageable parts is worth a minimum of $200. You can get that much for the grips, firing pin, toggle, grip screws, front sight, etc., without even selling the frame. This is the starting point in valuing any Luger. From there the value can only increase as quality of the gun improves.

[Dok]

I don't always get it right every time, but I try to keep the forum on an even keel. A place where folks can come and discuss their hobby and not feel intimidated.


I have seen so many of these "shooter vs. collectible" discussions flare up into really ugly threads that perhaps my last post was a "knee-jerk" reaction.


I don't mean to imply that this is a forbidden topic, but unless we can provide some fresh prespective on this much hashed topic, it's the same ol', same ol'. And that invariably leads to "positions at fifty paces".


We've been arguing about our various relgious beliefs for thousands of years, and more lives have been lost in the name God than any other cause, and we haven't solved it yet.


I view these things in much the same light, and unless someone can bring some fresh thought provoking ideas to the table, backed by some imperical evidence, then I'm afraid what we have what we've always had - a good fight!


Feel free to present your ideas (I think some of Dwight's questions were unique and valid questions), answer them honestly, but don't let it degrade into a free for all, which generally starts by attacking another person's position.


Thanks,


Dok (Webmaster)

Dwight:


Your pistol is an unusual case. I have a M1930 Mauser Broomhandle that had a bad chamber when I got it. There was just a slight bit of pitting in the chamber but it was enough to cause extraction problems. I decided to have it relined in 7.63 and it shoots fine now.


You will need to decide how much money you want to put into your Luger, if indeed you want to put any more into it at all. If it was mine, I think I would have to get a new barrel and mag release for it (assuming the breechblock, etc., was OK).


I'm not sure if relining is possible or what it would cost. You might check with Mentor Arms on that. I don't have an address or phone handy but I bet Kyrie does. My Mauser was relined by Oyster Bay but I have not seen their ads for a long time.


Since new barrels are readily available I think I would go that route. I'm sure Tom Heller could put a new barrel on for you and he would be my first choice. I would stay with the original 4 inch length but you could get a 6 inch or even 8 inch barrel installed.

Obviously you have the option to change from .30 cal to 9mm. A reblued 9mm (or .30 cal) that will shoot has got to be worth more than a reblued .30 cal that won't shoot. 9mm ammo is a lot cheaper to buy.


How much it is really worth can only be determined for sure if you try to sell it. In present condition, not a whole lot. With a new barrel and mag release, certainly more than $250.


I would fix it, keep it, and shoot it.

Dok is right, as long as things are calm and no name calling, dengration (sp?) and "How the ^&&* can you say that??", then this is a good topic!


I understand where he is coming from and appreciate his intentions and hard work that goes in running something like this forum!


ED

Redmons in Omak Wash charge $100 plus to rebore .30 to 9. They also reline I believe. Cheapest way to fix barrel is buy new repro--$50 and have it installed. I know where it can be done for $40. Enjoy your Luger what ever it is. It isn't going to depreciate and it is worth a million to you!!

[lugerholsterrepair]

I thought Bill's response was as he indicated. Polite but of a different opinion. We all have different ideas about what we collect and this is an excellent place to desseminate those. Dok has the experience and of course the power to stop a thread at any time but I think it is a healthy excersize to discuss different opinions. That is one of the things I like about the Forum. It gives all of us a chance to give and take. I agree that it is best to remain polite however. Jerry Burney