Artillery Barrel Specs???

sheepherder · 02-04-2009, 07:28 PM

(NOTE: This thread was my first post here on Lugerforum, in February of 2009. Since then, Sturgess and Gortz have published their "The Borchardt And Luger Automatic Pistols", a definitive volume containing 14 pages of LP-08 'blueprints', including the artillery barrel. A DVD of the complete works, including full-size 2008 x 3035 pixel photos, many in color, and consisting of 1888 PDF pages is available from Simpson Ltd for $35 and $15 S&H.

Written October 2014 by Rich B. 'sheepherder'/'postino')

Hello!

I'm re-barreling a commercial Luger with what I hope will look like an artillery barrel...I've done barrels before (pic of Lahti below) and have already started on a Luger Artillery barrel...

I can pull the approximate dimensions from pics here and elsewhere, but a "print" would be helpful...Is there one available anywhere online???

Thank You!

John Sabato · 02-11-2009, 10:35 AM

I have never seen a print of the artillery barrel, so if you find one, please let me know.

There is a forum member called Makarov (first name is Vladimir) who has done extensive work in 3D graphics. He has completed a 3D model of the artillery Luger... perhaps you could contact him and see if he can provide you a couple of dimensioned prints to help in your project.

Remarkably, all of his work has been done by reverse engineering prints and graphic images of the Luger. He lives in Russia, where possession of a Luger is forbidden.

You could also order one of my Blueprint CD's for many of the critical dimensions... unfortunately, the rear sight base on the artillery model is not included... the CD contains all of the dimensioned prints for the P.08 model.

BTW, where are YOU located?

sheepherder · 02-11-2009, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

You could also order one of my Blueprint CD's for many of the critical dimensions...

PayPal transfer completed!

Quote:

BTW, where are YOU located?

I'm in the US.

Pulling the dimensions off an old 9mm barrel + pics from here and Gunbroker.com should be close enough for my loose standards...

sheepherder · 02-11-2009, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Not much really to offer...

Quite a bit, I'd say!!! Thank You!!!

Edit: Rick - What do you get for a side-to-side measurement of the rear sight "sleeve"??? Horizontal width, so to speak...

sheepherder · 02-12-2009, 02:55 PM

Still whittling down the excess metal...

sheepherder · 02-12-2009, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Not an easy task, the artillery barrel. Enjoying the pictures.

Yeah, picture shows are fun! I'll be putting these on the CNCGuns site as a sort of How To...

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

Rich, what kind of lathe and other metal working machines do you have?

I had to sell all my real tools (Bridgeport, South Bend, Miller)...This is one of those Chinese 3in1 machines (and a rotary indexing head)...

Cut the lower radius's [radii???] today...

sheepherder · 02-18-2009, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

I did not have anything to measure the overall length of this arty barrel, but my foot ruler said 8 7/8", ie the nominal 200mm that we hear about for most artillery barrels.

I hope that is just a typo...200mm is 7 7/8"...

Are you adding on an extra inch for the threaded portion + part that butts against the [barrel extension/slide/receiver - choose one, the name for that piece seems ambiguous)???...

sheepherder · 02-21-2009, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

...I do enjoy Luger barrels from scratch too. I have shot my own renditions from 5" to 14" lengths, all in 30 caliber; 30 Luger and wildcats thereof...

I like doing wildcats...I have a Colt Gov't Model in 38/45 Clerke and a S&W N-frame in .357/44 magnum...and this Broomhandle, in .256 Winchester Magnum/7.63mm Mauser...I cut down a .223 Remington case and run it through a shortened .256 Win Mag die to make the cartridges...barrel blank, like most all of mine, is from Numrich, many years ago...

sheepherder · 02-22-2009, 02:31 PM

Got a couple of little things finished...Cut a couple scallops in the rear sight base sides to mimic the LP08 base; re-cut the front sight ramp (I had used 60Ã?Âº instead of the 40Ã?Âº called for in the blueprints; I settled for 45Ã?Âº); cut the muzzle back; re-cut the sight arc...

...It's getting there...

End of my vacation today; work will go slowly from here on...

sheepherder · 02-24-2009, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

I have a set of B&D dies, but not executed a 27 conversion yet, maybe someday.

Mine is not the Bain & Davis; it's the .44 Mag brass run through a .357 Automag die. I used to have an Automag with both .357 and .44 Automag barrels; ran a couple shells through the .357 Automag dies and then had Clymer (back when the family still ran the business) grind me a reamer. Did a couple N-frame cylinders; worked out real well.

Quote:

Always wondered how the Clerke would feed, hear about them from time to time, guess ok.

Not so good...It takes a lot of experimentation to get the ramp and mag right...I still don't have it right...

Quote:

In the Luger realm, I seem to be given a few 30 and 303Brit caliber rifle take off barrels now and then, so hence the 30 caliber Luger attempts here...I finally got tired of losing all of the real 30 Luger brass($$$) at the indoor range, and worked with the 9mmx19 necked up to 30 caliber that was posted here some years ago by a forum member across the pond....

That's the 9 x 19 brass run through a .30 Luger die??? I might try that...I've been making my .30 Luger cartridges from .223 Remington brass cut down & run through the .30 Luger dies...I did the same thing with the 7.63mm Broomhandle...

Pic attached...Stripper clip of Rube Goldberg 7.63mm Broomhandle (made from .223 Rem); one of the 7.63mm Broomhandle/Rube Goldberg cartridges; one 38/45 Clerke; a 357/44 bottleneck hull; and a loaded 357/44 bottleneck...

John Sabato · 02-12-2009, 04:42 PM

Rich, what kind of lathe and other metal working machines do you have? Just curious.

I have the same Craftsman 12" x 36" lathe as Rick W.

John Sabato · 02-13-2009, 11:50 AM

I am very interested in how you intend to cut the remainder of the front barrel band... and then then merge it with the small end of the barrel taper... take plenty of photos please including the actual cutting operation...

cma22inc · 02-13-2009, 03:37 PM

Ok when are you ramping up production for custom barrels for all our shooters?

J/k

sheepherder · 02-13-2009, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

I am very interested in how you intend to cut the remainder of the front barrel band...

I'm wondering how I'm going to do that, too...

sheepherder · 02-13-2009, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick W.

Not sure if I understand yet...

I know I don't!!!

But thanks for the visual pictures! I'm working from a dozen or so posted pictures, and an old 100mm barrel I have on hand...

I'll keep cutting metal and we shall see what comes out!!!

sheepherder · 02-16-2009, 10:47 AM

I'm looking at John's Blueprint CD (Thank You, Sir!) and I find it puzzling that DWM (and the other P-08 contractors) used 20tpi for their 18mm barrel thread (and 55Ã?Âº for the thread angle instead of 60Ã?Âº)...

20tpi isn't a metric size; John's print clearly shows that the thread pitch is 1.270mm...which works out to 0.04999985in...for comparison, 20tpi is 0.050in...Too close to be coincidence...

And it's not just Germany...The Swedish/Finnish Lahti shown in the first post also uses an 18mm x 20tpi thread...

Does anyone know why the Europeans would use an inch thread pitch??? The closest Metric thread pitch is 1.25mm...Which is quite common...and works out to 0.04921245in...Close, but no cigar...

On an unrelated note, while digging through my parts boxes from the '80's, I noticed that I have one of my home-made 150mm barrels lying around...It's been shot, and I can see some marks from the breech block, but I have no idea why it's still here...the two Lugers I owned back in the mid-'90's both had 150mm barrels on them when I sold them...

I guess it's true...A mind is a terrible thing to waste...

sheepherder · 02-19-2009, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Sabato

I am very interested in how you intend to cut the remainder of the front barrel band... and then then merge it with the small end of the barrel taper... take plenty of photos please including the actual cutting operation...

Kind of hard to do...while cutting...oily hands, concentration, paranoia...

But I shortened the front sight base a little; cut back the front of the rear sight base; turned the threaded portion back to specs & finish reamed the chamber; and finally cut the taper...The taper came out very good...

Vlim · 02-16-2009, 01:22 PM

Hi,

The DWM factory, part of Ludwig Loewe & Cie., were involved in standardization processes, a bit of a Loewe hobby, so to say.

Ludwig Loewe himself spent many days in the USA, studying the American production methods and introducing the processes in Germany. This was the forerunner of the later German DIN standardization norm.

In other words: German industrial standardization is based upon American production methods.

Ron Wood · 02-16-2009, 01:44 PM

Actually, the 55Ã?Âº thread pattern is the British Whitworth form originally proposed in 1841 and subsequently adopted as the British Standard Whitworth. It was the best standard in Europe at the time and, as noted, used by several/most manufacturers. The American Unified Course standard uses the 60Ã?Âº thread angle. Even the Luger grip screws are Whitworth pattern.

sheepherder · 02-16-2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Wood

...the 55Ã?Âº thread pattern is... the best standard in Europe...and...used by several/most manufacturers...

I think I can guesstimate/grind 55Ã?Âº instead of 60Ã?Âº and set my cross feed also...

I got some more done today, along with finishing my taxes...As per popular request, here's more pics...

First pic is cutting the rear sight dovetail; second pic is cutting the front sight dovetail; third is rough cutting the 9mm Parabellum chamber (I use Clymer finish chambering reamer w/high Sulphur content cutting oil; feed in 1/32" at a time, back out & blow chips away)...

02-04-2009, 07:28 PM	#1
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	Artillery Barrel Specs (NOTE: This thread was my first post here on Lugerforum, in February of 2009. Since then, Sturgess and Gortz have published their "The Borchardt And Luger Automatic Pistols", a definitive volume containing 14 pages of LP-08 'blueprints', including the artillery barrel. A DVD of the complete works, including full-size 2008 x 3035 pixel photos, many in color, and consisting of 1888 PDF pages is available from Simpson Ltd for $35 and $15 S&H. Written October 2014 by Rich B. 'sheepherder'/'postino') Hello! I'm re-barreling a commercial Luger with what I hope will look like an artillery barrel...I've done barrels before (pic of Lahti below) and have already started on a Luger Artillery barrel... I can pull the approximate dimensions from pics here and elsewhere, but a "print" would be helpful...Is there one available anywhere online??? Thank You! Attached Thumbnails Last edited by sheepherder; 10-23-2014 at 11:35 PM.

02-11-2009, 10:35 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I have never seen a print of the artillery barrel, so if you find one, please let me know. There is a forum member called Makarov (first name is Vladimir) who has done extensive work in 3D graphics. He has completed a 3D model of the artillery Luger... perhaps you could contact him and see if he can provide you a couple of dimensioned prints to help in your project. Remarkably, all of his work has been done by reverse engineering prints and graphic images of the Luger. He lives in Russia, where possession of a Luger is forbidden. You could also order one of my Blueprint CD's for many of the critical dimensions... unfortunately, the rear sight base on the artillery model is not included... the CD contains all of the dimensioned prints for the P.08 model. BTW, where are YOU located? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-12-2009, 02:55 PM	#5
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	Still whittling down the excess metal... Attached Thumbnails

02-22-2009, 02:31 PM	#9
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	Got a couple of little things finished...Cut a couple scallops in the rear sight base sides to mimic the LP08 base; re-cut the front sight ramp (I had used 60Ã?Âº instead of the 40Ã?Âº called for in the blueprints; I settled for 45Ã?Âº); cut the muzzle back; re-cut the sight arc... ...It's getting there... End of my vacation today; work will go slowly from here on... Attached Thumbnails

02-12-2009, 04:42 PM	#11
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Rich, what kind of lathe and other metal working machines do you have? Just curious. I have the same Craftsman 12" x 36" lathe as Rick W. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-13-2009, 11:50 AM	#12
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I am very interested in how you intend to cut the remainder of the front barrel band... and then then merge it with the small end of the barrel taper... take plenty of photos please including the actual cutting operation... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

02-13-2009, 03:37 PM	#13
cma22inc User Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Tampa Bay FL Posts: 93 Thanks: 1 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts	Ok when are you ramping up production for custom barrels for all our shooters? J/k

02-16-2009, 10:47 AM	#16
sheepherder Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: ...on the 'ol Erie Canal... Posts: 8,181 Thanks: 1,398 Thanked 4,438 Times in 2,327 Posts	I'm looking at John's Blueprint CD (Thank You, Sir!) and I find it puzzling that DWM (and the other P-08 contractors) used 20tpi for their 18mm barrel thread (and 55Ã?Âº for the thread angle instead of 60Ã?Âº)... 20tpi isn't a metric size; John's print clearly shows that the thread pitch is 1.270mm...which works out to 0.04999985in...for comparison, 20tpi is 0.050in...Too close to be coincidence... And it's not just Germany...The Swedish/Finnish Lahti shown in the first post also uses an 18mm x 20tpi thread... Does anyone know why the Europeans would use an inch thread pitch??? The closest Metric thread pitch is 1.25mm...Which is quite common...and works out to 0.04921245in...Close, but no cigar... On an unrelated note, while digging through my parts boxes from the '80's, I noticed that I have one of my home-made 150mm barrels lying around...It's been shot, and I can see some marks from the breech block, but I have no idea why it's still here...the two Lugers I owned back in the mid-'90's both had 150mm barrels on them when I sold them... I guess it's true...A mind is a terrible thing to waste... Attached Thumbnails Last edited by sheepherder; 02-16-2009 at 10:49 AM. Reason: duh

02-16-2009, 01:22 PM	#18
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	Hi, The DWM factory, part of Ludwig Loewe & Cie., were involved in standardization processes, a bit of a Loewe hobby, so to say. Ludwig Loewe himself spent many days in the USA, studying the American production methods and introducing the processes in Germany. This was the forerunner of the later German DIN standardization norm. In other words: German industrial standardization is based upon American production methods.

02-16-2009, 01:44 PM	#19
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 6,986 Thanks: 1,065 Thanked 5,088 Times in 1,674 Posts	Actually, the 55Ã?Âº thread pattern is the British Whitworth form originally proposed in 1841 and subsequently adopted as the British Standard Whitworth. It was the best standard in Europe at the time and, as noted, used by several/most manufacturers. The American Unified Course standard uses the 60Ã?Âº thread angle. Even the Luger grip screws are Whitworth pattern. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction