Navy Marked Luger on GB Auctions

aldo35 · 08-21-2014, 10:28 AM

There is a Navy marked luger on GB for $1099. Serial # is 15400 and the last 0 looks forced on rear toggle and middle toggle. What are your thoughts.

John Sabato · 08-21-2014, 11:00 AM

Aldo, please provide a link to the GB page where this gun is displayed.

lugerholsterrepair · 08-21-2014, 11:11 AM

This thing?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=436394634

John Sabato · 08-21-2014, 12:53 PM

This is a refinished mixed parts non-matching gun with a 6 inch barrel. NOT a Navy Luger. The barrel isn't even a Navy barrel, just a 6 inch barrel. So don't waste your money thinking that this is a Navy anything...

The magazine is East German VOPO manufacture of the FXO type. This is indicated by the 2/1001 number on the side of the magazine tube.

This gun is worth LESS than $900 as a shooter IMHO.

Ron Wood · 08-21-2014, 01:12 PM

I can't find the one that Joseph (aldo35) asked about...I don't think the one in Jerry's link is it. We need a link or something to narrow down the search.

cirelaw · 08-21-2014, 01:35 PM

I know I should know this, What does 'altered' mean?? Eric

aldo35 · 08-21-2014, 02:12 PM

Not sure how to post a link It is probably somewhere here and I will look for it.

The one link already posted is not the pistol in question.

Ron Wood · 08-21-2014, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cirelaw

I know I should know this, What does 'altered' mean?? Eric

The First Issue Navy Lugers were manufactured to be "on safe" with the thumb safety in the up position. Since it was possible to knock it "off safe" while holstering, the safety was "altered" to be on safe in the down position. The lower safety marking was obliterated and a new "Gesichert" was stamped in the upper position so that it would be visible when the safety was on, in the new down position.

Ron Wood · 08-21-2014, 02:22 PM

Joseph,
If you can't figure out how to post a link, provide the Auction # of the item and we can search on that.

aldo35 · 08-21-2014, 02:23 PM

Hi,

I couldn't find the answer in FAQ on posting a link so I tried copying holsterrepairs link

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction view....436253647

Hope this works.

Aldo

Ron Wood · 08-21-2014, 02:26 PM

That didn't work but this will:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=436253647

It is a Frankenluger. Probably a legitimate 1916 Navy receiver with added and renumbered parts. The perpetrator even added a Krieghoff proof on the barrel.

aldo35 · 08-21-2014, 02:26 PM

http//www.gunbroker.com/auction/view...item=436253647

Ron Wood · 08-21-2014, 02:32 PM

Joseph,
You have to copy the URL from the web site, you can't just edit Jerry's post...the link won't be embedded.

Eric,
That is the same one Jerry posted and it isn't the right one.

Click on the link I provided...it works.

Norme · 08-21-2014, 02:33 PM

Hi Aldo, Gunbroker lot # 436253647 is the one you are asking about. The receiver is from a 1916 Navy, the rest of the gun is not.
Regards, Norm

alanint · 08-21-2014, 02:39 PM

And those twin "zeros" on the rear toggle link were done as some class project at the local Kindergarten.......

John Sabato · 08-21-2014, 03:10 PM

Okay, now that we have a different Luger to look at. Here are my observations on THIS pistol.

As Ron has mentioned, the upper receiver appears to be a legitimate Navy Receiver from 1916. The barrel appears to be a Krieghoff manufactured replacement, and yet it is numbered to the upper receiver.

I don't have any references available to me at the moment, but I don't think military (Navy) receivers had 5 digit serial numbers... somebody correct me if I am guessing wrong on this fact. I have been known to be wrong in the past on at least some things, just ask my wife!

The right hand ZERO on the back of the rear toggle appears to have been added or overstamped on the original number (possibly an "8" or a "3" and is irregular in shape. If it were the original number stamping on this toggle, it would have been made with the same stamp that was used on the left hand ZERO, but is definitley a different size from that one. (Forced Matching and poorly done...Thanks Doug).

From what can be seen in the provided photographs, there is no serial number present on the lower frame above the trigger guard. This is a red flag for me. It is difficult to tell if it is parrallax distortion in the side photo, but it APPEARS that the front of the frame has been ground down or shaved so that no number appears there.

Since the barrel was replaced, I believe that the front of the upper receiver was shaved to match the new dimension of the lower so that it does not protrude from the lower frame when assembled, which would be a giveaway that the gun has been boosted.

It is possible that the number on the left side of the upper receiver may have been enhanced by the addition of the leading number "1" and the trailing "0" so that the original number may have been 540 instead of 15400.

No one has yet mentioned that this gun has been modified with a police safety installed over the sideplate...

While it is certainly possible that all the above modifications were made when a WW1 Navy gun was rebuilt into a gun for issue and service with a German police agency, I don't have much confidence in that theory. I think the gun is the product of Waffenfabrik USA to be sold as something that it is not.

Just my $0.02

cirelaw · 08-21-2014, 03:12 PM

Brilliant Work you both!

John Sabato · 08-21-2014, 03:21 PM

Aldo,

To provide a link or URL in your posts, you put a browser on the page you want to link, and copy the complete URL from the address bar on the browser and paste it into your post for the Lugerforum. For example the URL for this discussion page is:

http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...201#post259201

Norme · 08-21-2014, 03:26 PM

Hi John, 1916 Imperial Navies were numbered 1 to 8000, but the receivers had no external numbers. They were numbered with only the last two digits on the recoil lug (see photo).
Regards, Norm

John Sabato · 08-21-2014, 03:29 PM

Looks like my wife is right again!

I hate it when that happens!

So what about the lower receiver/frame serial numbers Norme?

08-21-2014, 10:28 AM	#1
aldo35 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Northern GA Posts: 343 Thanks: 2,218 Thanked 146 Times in 76 Posts	Navy Marked Luger on GB Auctions There is a Navy marked luger on GB for $1099. Serial # is 15400 and the last 0 looks forced on rear toggle and middle toggle. What are your thoughts.

08-21-2014, 11:00 AM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Aldo, please provide a link to the GB page where this gun is displayed. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-21-2014, 11:11 AM	#3
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,772 Thanks: 4,931 Thanked 3,124 Times in 1,434 Posts	This thing? http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=436394634 __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

08-21-2014, 12:53 PM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	This is a refinished mixed parts non-matching gun with a 6 inch barrel. NOT a Navy Luger. The barrel isn't even a Navy barrel, just a 6 inch barrel. So don't waste your money thinking that this is a Navy anything... The magazine is East German VOPO manufacture of the FXO type. This is indicated by the 2/1001 number on the side of the magazine tube. This gun is worth LESS than $900 as a shooter IMHO. __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-21-2014, 01:12 PM	#5
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	I can't find the one that Joseph (aldo35) asked about...I don't think the one in Jerry's link is it. We need a link or something to narrow down the search. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-21-2014, 01:35 PM	#6
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	I know I should know this, What does 'altered' mean?? Eric

08-21-2014, 02:12 PM	#7
aldo35 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Northern GA Posts: 343 Thanks: 2,218 Thanked 146 Times in 76 Posts	How do I post a link/ Not sure how to post a link It is probably somewhere here and I will look for it. The one link already posted is not the pistol in question.

08-21-2014, 02:22 PM	#9
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Joseph, If you can't figure out how to post a link, provide the Auction # of the item and we can search on that. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-21-2014, 02:23 PM	#10
aldo35 User Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Northern GA Posts: 343 Thanks: 2,218 Thanked 146 Times in 76 Posts	GunBroker Auction 436253647 Hi, I couldn't find the answer in FAQ on posting a link so I tried copying holsterrepairs link http://www.gunbroker.com/auction view....436253647 Hope this works. Aldo

08-21-2014, 02:26 PM	#11
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	That didn't work but this will: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=436253647 It is a Frankenluger. Probably a legitimate 1916 Navy receiver with added and renumbered parts. The perpetrator even added a Krieghoff proof on the barrel. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-21-2014, 02:32 PM	#13
Ron Wood Moderator 2010 LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Santa Teresa New Mexico just outside of the West Texas town of El Paso Posts: 7,022 Thanks: 1,090 Thanked 5,178 Times in 1,703 Posts	Joseph, You have to copy the URL from the web site, you can't just edit Jerry's post...the link won't be embedded. Eric, That is the same one Jerry posted and it isn't the right one. Click on the link I provided...it works. __________________ If it's made after 1918...it's a reproduction

08-21-2014, 02:33 PM	#14
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi Aldo, Gunbroker lot # 436253647 is the one you are asking about. The receiver is from a 1916 Navy, the rest of the gun is not. Regards, Norm

08-21-2014, 02:39 PM	#15
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	And those twin "zeros" on the rear toggle link were done as some class project at the local Kindergarten.......

08-21-2014, 03:10 PM	#16
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Okay, now that we have a different Luger to look at. Here are my observations on THIS pistol. As Ron has mentioned, the upper receiver appears to be a legitimate Navy Receiver from 1916. The barrel appears to be a Krieghoff manufactured replacement, and yet it is numbered to the upper receiver. I don't have any references available to me at the moment, but I don't think military (Navy) receivers had 5 digit serial numbers... somebody correct me if I am guessing wrong on this fact. I have been known to be wrong in the past on at least some things, just ask my wife! The right hand ZERO on the back of the rear toggle appears to have been added or overstamped on the original number (possibly an "8" or a "3" and is irregular in shape. If it were the original number stamping on this toggle, it would have been made with the same stamp that was used on the left hand ZERO, but is definitley a different size from that one. (Forced Matching and poorly done...Thanks Doug). From what can be seen in the provided photographs, there is no serial number present on the lower frame above the trigger guard. This is a red flag for me. It is difficult to tell if it is parrallax distortion in the side photo, but it APPEARS that the front of the frame has been ground down or shaved so that no number appears there. Since the barrel was replaced, I believe that the front of the upper receiver was shaved to match the new dimension of the lower so that it does not protrude from the lower frame when assembled, which would be a giveaway that the gun has been boosted. It is possible that the number on the left side of the upper receiver may have been enhanced by the addition of the leading number "1" and the trailing "0" so that the original number may have been 540 instead of 15400. No one has yet mentioned that this gun has been modified with a police safety installed over the sideplate... While it is certainly possible that all the above modifications were made when a WW1 Navy gun was rebuilt into a gun for issue and service with a German police agency, I don't have much confidence in that theory. I think the gun is the product of Waffenfabrik USA to be sold as something that it is not. Just my $0.02 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-21-2014, 03:12 PM	#17
cirelaw Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: PORT ST LUCIE, FLORIDA Posts: 12,216 Thanks: 6,209 Thanked 4,133 Times in 2,173 Posts	Brilliant Work you both!

08-21-2014, 03:21 PM	#18
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Aldo, To provide a link or URL in your posts, you put a browser on the page you want to link, and copy the complete URL from the address bar on the browser and paste it into your post for the Lugerforum. For example the URL for this discussion page is: http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthre...201#post259201 __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

08-21-2014, 03:26 PM	#19
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,417 Thanks: 226 Thanked 2,603 Times in 933 Posts	Hi John, 1916 Imperial Navies were numbered 1 to 8000, but the receivers had no external numbers. They were numbered with only the last two digits on the recoil lug (see photo). Regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails

08-21-2014, 03:29 PM	#20
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,154 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,306 Times in 1,097 Posts	Looks like my wife is right again! I hate it when that happens! So what about the lower receiver/frame serial numbers Norme? __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*