Problem with Take Down Lever?

Bob Kovacs · 09-04-2002, 08:36 AM

Hey Guys......

On my 1918 DWM Luger the rails on the barrel seem to extend out very slightly as u look at the gun from the front. These rails are flush with the frame on my other luger. I bet this is because my take down lever was not original to the gun cause if i adjust it down a bit then the frame and barrel rails go flush. Is this a problem to worry about? can i stll safely shoot my Luger?
I noticed some other luger pics with this slight rail extention like mine, is this ok or should i see a gunsmith?
Thanks..Bob

John Sabato · 09-04-2002, 12:30 PM

This is basically a cosmetic issue and not a safety issue because the toggle brings the round into battery in the chamber regardless of the final resting place of the upper assembly...

Try another take down lever from your other Luger if you have one... it may be a better fit... if that cures the problem, then you can order a replacement and possibly trade the one you have...

ken d · 09-04-2002, 06:43 PM

Bob:
If the chamber date was blank it could be a 1900 cannon on a 1908 frame resulting in a similar mis alignment.

Ken D

John Sabato · 09-05-2002, 10:40 AM

Ken D,

I would love to know the source of your information regarding the use of cannon serial numbers and the grinding of the front of the frame during rework. I have never heard that related to official arsenal rebuilds before...

ken d · 09-05-2002, 02:51 PM

John:
Suffering from oldtimers...May take some time as I forgot where I read it. Will start thru my books and see if I can come up with the info.

Ken D

John Sabato · 09-05-2002, 04:43 PM

thanks Ken, the only examples I have ever seen with a ground frame such as you describe were poor attempts by amateurs to "create" a new pistol from a stolen one by eliminating or changing the number on the front of the grip frame and replacing the upper assembly with one made from parts guns.

This usually causes a noticable gap between the upper assembly and the lower frame such as you have described.

This photo shows the hard line that is usually created when the front of the frame is filed off to allow the new number to be stamped in...

IMHO this particular gun was renumbered to be serial number 11.

Notice in the inset photo how this causes the upper receiver to stick out past the grip frame when assembled. Walk the other way when you see these signs... be very afraid. I would personally never buy a gun with the combination of these conditions.

Here is another example of a possible defacement of the grip frame serial number... notice the hard line from the grind operation, the protruding upper receiver when assembled, and a lightly stamped serial number...

IMHO this second photo also shows that the suffix letter was stamped before the grind operation, and after the grip frame was ground, the letter 'm' was "touched up" to be the same depth even though it passes over the irregular surface of the grind mark.

In your case, your receiver sticking out appears to be the result of the mismatched takedown lever.

Lucky you. [img]smile.gif[/img]

ken d · 09-05-2002, 05:07 PM

John:
After several hours I found one reference to the renumbering-- not the one I am looking for--Maybe
Jan can help me.
See WEIMAR AND EARLY NAZI LUGERS, Jan Still, Page 114, Fig 33a.(out of context) "the serial number was ground off the front of the frame (the "r" suffix portion of the sn remained) and a 40266 stamped to match the top. This luger demonstrates that frames were renumbered to luger tops in some reworking programs".
My problem--So much information and so little room to store it.
Hope this is of interest.
Ken D

Jerry Harris · 09-05-2002, 11:21 PM

John,

By way of clarification - there was a whole thread on the old forum about the kind of hard or "break" line you marked with an arrow. It turned out that 1918 DWM militarys evidently had that line as a standard feature. Several members compared guns to confirm it. The 1918s also had a similar break line on the back of the frame, just above the lanyard bracket.

If such break lines show up on other Luger models and are not typical for that model, they certainly would be consistent with a non-original machining operation.

POSTSCRIPT
I searched the old forum and could not find the thread I mentioned, but did find two relevant ones: Luke's "Interesting machining variation" of 1/5/02, and your (John Sabato's) "Possible serial number fraud on Auction Arms" of 10/10/01

John, I searched backward for 1918 DWM info when I was on the old forum and might have found the thread that way. Would it have been possible for me to look farther back than the present limit of 8 December 2000?

John Sabato · 09-06-2002, 03:31 PM

8 December 2000 was the date that the message database was established based on the forum that was created when the board was moved out of Taiwan...the old "new" forum was opened to the public on January 19th, 2001...

If you remember a thread that doesn't appear in a search of that database, then it happened on the Taiwan based discussion board and the message thread is lost forever... that was one reason that we moved the location and the format...

Roadkill · 09-06-2002, 08:27 PM

John, don't you think it would look a little better if you had that patch turned to the side?
There's just something about two luger barrels under your chin that's uncomfortable to me.

RK

Hugh · 09-06-2002, 10:37 PM

RK,

Maybe John thinks his beard is bullet proof? <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" />

Edward Tinker · 09-06-2002, 11:18 PM

And on top would look a bit funny, like a hat, hmmmm, guess no funnier than a Luger without its magazine in the grip, [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

John Sabato · 09-09-2002, 11:18 AM

I stacked my avatar photo instead of putting it side by side because that would take up too much text room on any thread that I comment on... ( And I think I take up too much text room on those threads as it is! - no wise crack Hugh!) [img]biggrin.gif[/img]

Roadkill · 09-09-2002, 03:23 PM

John, when you were in the Army did the terms "special order" or " outside regular procurement channels" or "recommend private purchase venue" ever come up regarding headgear?

RK

Stevie · 09-22-2002, 10:41 PM

Thank you Jerry Harris, thank's gentlemen! You have helped me figure out when my old 1920 dwm was realy made. She has the sharp edge on the front, and also above the lanyard loop. 1918 I reckon. I've thought for years it was a 1916. I got suspicious When Doub's posted a picture of his 1918 DWM double date on the new members Weimer luger thread. The six on my gun became a rust pit and the bottom half of an eight. I am so glad I joined the Forum.

Thankyou, Thankyou, Stevie

09-04-2002, 08:36 AM	#1
Bob Kovacs User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 26 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Problem with Take Down Lever? Hey Guys...... On my 1918 DWM Luger the rails on the barrel seem to extend out very slightly as u look at the gun from the front. These rails are flush with the frame on my other luger. I bet this is because my take down lever was not original to the gun cause if i adjust it down a bit then the frame and barrel rails go flush. Is this a problem to worry about? can i stll safely shoot my Luger? I noticed some other luger pics with this slight rail extention like mine, is this ok or should i see a gunsmith? Thanks..Bob

09-04-2002, 12:30 PM	#2
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	This is basically a cosmetic issue and not a safety issue because the toggle brings the round into battery in the chamber regardless of the final resting place of the upper assembly... Try another take down lever from your other Luger if you have one... it may be a better fit... if that cures the problem, then you can order a replacement and possibly trade the one you have... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-05-2002, 10:40 AM	#4
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Ken D, I would love to know the source of your information regarding the use of cannon serial numbers and the grinding of the front of the frame during rework. I have never heard that related to official arsenal rebuilds before... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-05-2002, 04:43 PM	#6
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	thanks Ken, the only examples I have ever seen with a ground frame such as you describe were poor attempts by amateurs to "create" a new pistol from a stolen one by eliminating or changing the number on the front of the grip frame and replacing the upper assembly with one made from parts guns. This usually causes a noticable gap between the upper assembly and the lower frame such as you have described. This photo shows the hard line that is usually created when the front of the frame is filed off to allow the new number to be stamped in... IMHO this particular gun was renumbered to be serial number 11. Notice in the inset photo how this causes the upper receiver to stick out past the grip frame when assembled. Walk the other way when you see these signs... be very afraid. I would personally never buy a gun with the combination of these conditions. Here is another example of a possible defacement of the grip frame serial number... notice the hard line from the grind operation, the protruding upper receiver when assembled, and a lightly stamped serial number... IMHO this second photo also shows that the suffix letter was stamped before the grind operation, and after the grip frame was ground, the letter 'm' was "touched up" to be the same depth even though it passes over the irregular surface of the grind mark. In your case, your receiver sticking out appears to be the result of the mismatched takedown lever. Lucky you. [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-06-2002, 03:31 PM	#9
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	8 December 2000 was the date that the message database was established based on the forum that was created when the board was moved out of Taiwan...the old "new" forum was opened to the public on January 19th, 2001... If you remember a thread that doesn't appear in a search of that database, then it happened on the Taiwan based discussion board and the message thread is lost forever... that was one reason that we moved the location and the format... __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-04-2002, 06:43 PM	#3
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	Bob: If the chamber date was blank it could be a 1900 cannon on a 1908 frame resulting in a similar mis alignment. Ken D

09-05-2002, 02:51 PM	#5
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	John: Suffering from oldtimers...May take some time as I forgot where I read it. Will start thru my books and see if I can come up with the info. Ken D

09-05-2002, 05:07 PM	#7
ken d Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: louisville ky Posts: 277 Thanks: 31 Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts	John: After several hours I found one reference to the renumbering-- not the one I am looking for--Maybe Jan can help me. See WEIMAR AND EARLY NAZI LUGERS, Jan Still, Page 114, Fig 33a.(out of context) "the serial number was ground off the front of the frame (the "r" suffix portion of the sn remained) and a 40266 stamped to match the top. This luger demonstrates that frames were renumbered to luger tops in some reworking programs". My problem--So much information and so little room to store it. Hope this is of interest. Ken D

09-05-2002, 11:21 PM	#8
Jerry Harris User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 64 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	John, By way of clarification - there was a whole thread on the old forum about the kind of hard or "break" line you marked with an arrow. It turned out that 1918 DWM militarys evidently had that line as a standard feature. Several members compared guns to confirm it. The 1918s also had a similar break line on the back of the frame, just above the lanyard bracket. If such break lines show up on other Luger models and are not typical for that model, they certainly would be consistent with a non-original machining operation. POSTSCRIPT I searched the old forum and could not find the thread I mentioned, but did find two relevant ones: Luke's "Interesting machining variation" of 1/5/02, and your (John Sabato's) "Possible serial number fraud on Auction Arms" of 10/10/01 John, I searched backward for 1918 DWM info when I was on the old forum and might have found the thread that way. Would it have been possible for me to look farther back than the present limit of 8 December 2000?

09-06-2002, 08:27 PM	#10
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	John, don't you think it would look a little better if you had that patch turned to the side? There's just something about two luger barrels under your chin that's uncomfortable to me. RK

09-06-2002, 10:37 PM	#11
Hugh RIP Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Southeast Texas Swamp Posts: 2,460 Thanks: 2 Thanked 165 Times in 64 Posts	RK, Maybe John thinks his beard is bullet proof? <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> __________________ *TRUMP FOR PREZ IN '20!*

09-06-2002, 11:18 PM	#12
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,912 Thanks: 1,989 Thanked 4,502 Times in 2,077 Posts	And on top would look a bit funny, like a hat, hmmmm, guess no funnier than a Luger without its magazine in the grip, [img]biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

09-09-2002, 11:18 AM	#13
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	I stacked my avatar photo instead of putting it side by side because that would take up too much text room on any thread that I comment on... ( And I think I take up too much text room on those threads as it is! - no wise crack Hugh!) [img]biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ regards, -John S "...We hold these truths to be self-evident that ALL men are created EQUAL *and are endowed by their Creator* with certain UNALIENABLE* rights, and among these are life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness..."*

09-09-2002, 03:23 PM	#14
Roadkill User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,632 Thanks: 1 Thanked 28 Times in 17 Posts	John, when you were in the Army did the terms "special order" or " outside regular procurement channels" or "recommend private purchase venue" ever come up regarding headgear? RK

09-22-2002, 10:41 PM	#15
Stevie User Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ok. Posts: 212 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thank you Jerry Harris, thank's gentlemen! You have helped me figure out when my old 1920 dwm was realy made. She has the sharp edge on the front, and also above the lanyard loop. 1918 I reckon. I've thought for years it was a 1916. I got suspicious When Doub's posted a picture of his 1918 DWM double date on the new members Weimer luger thread. The six on my gun became a rust pit and the bottom half of an eight. I am so glad I joined the Forum. Thankyou, Thankyou, Stevie