"Sneak" Luger

tx_oil · 03-30-2012, 07:42 PM

Greetings!

I am a long time shooter and collector, but a noob to the Luger world. I was offered a Luger at the LGS, and would like opinions as to it's provenance. It is a refinished pistol, no chamber date, plastic grips, no import marks. Bore is VERY good and overall condition is excellent. I was told that it is probably a 'sneak' Luger, without certain proof marks to avoid post WWI arms restrictions.

What is the consensus here?? I know it is refinished, that does not matter to me.. I am wanting a decent shooter, not a historical piece.

Edward Tinker · 03-30-2012, 07:51 PM

What is an LGS? Some kind of religious group?

You need close ups of the markings on the left or right.

Read the FAQ and see what it says about 'sneaks' a term I do not fully agree with....

tx_oil · 03-30-2012, 08:00 PM

Sorry about that., LGS= Local Gun Shop
These are all the photos I have right now. I(At work offshore)

Edward Tinker · 03-30-2012, 08:22 PM

Too hard to say, if any markings on the right, then it is probably a weimar era luger.

If any crown N on the left, then a commercial.

What is the caliber?

If 'refinished' then any markings could have been removed, and if refinished, probably here in the USA.

Don't believe the 'if it is from the 1920's it is old parts blah, blah....

alanint · 03-30-2012, 08:30 PM

Those grips don't look plastic to me.......

JTD · 03-30-2012, 09:18 PM

Best guess from pics provided is 29 sneak police. proofing on right side of upper recever and barrel, blank toggle, sear safe. Nice crisp edges, are you sure it is refinished? John

tx_oil · 03-30-2012, 09:34 PM

I personally have not reviewed this pistol.. I am currently offshore at work.
I was told that the gun had been refinished, and the fellow at the gun store took and emailed me these pics. I have bought many guns from this store and have NO REASON to doubt the info provided me. I believe the gun is a commercial mutt or mixed number gun, and that is all right with me...just wanting a decent shooter. I do apologize for not being able to provide more info about proof marks, serial numbers, etc...but what kind of price would considered to be fair for this piece? I thank you all for your knowledge and expertise.

Dwight Gruber · 03-31-2012, 02:07 AM

There is no such thing as a sneak Luger.

It appears that there is no DWM on the toggle. The gun has a sear safety. The marks on the right are those to be expected on an alphabet DWM/29DWM police Luger. I tried to extract a serial number suffix, it was nearly impossible but it might be u, which would be proper on a gun like this.

I agree that the grips look good.

From the photos, I would not want to assume that it has been reblued.

I think this gun might be a "sleeper." If you can get it for a shooter price, $800 or less, it is probably a good deal. IT might have a story to tell, and it might be worth more, depending.

Will they hold it for you until you can get there to examine it? Will they take other pictures for you?

Please let us know the outcome of this.

--Dwight

tx_oil · 03-31-2012, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

There is no such thing as a sneak Luger.

It appears that there is no DWM on the toggle. The gun has a sear safety. The marks on the right are those to be expected on an alphabet DWM/29DWM police Luger. I tried to extract a serial number suffix, it was nearly impossible but it might be u, which would be proper on a gun like this.

I agree that the grips look good.

From the photos, I would not want to assume that it has been reblued.

I think this gun might be a "sleeper." If you can get it for a shooter price, $800 or less, it is probably a good deal. IT might have a story to tell, and it might be worth more, depending.

Will they hold it for you until you can get there to examine it? Will they take other pictures for you?

Please let us know the outcome of this.

--Dwight

I truly appreciate the input. The shop is holding this gun for me until I am able to inspect it in person, and from the photos, the pistol looks pretty good. I was not wanting a Russian capture or one in cosmetically terrible condition, and from what I can see this one appears to be in good shape. As with my other collectibles (Pythons, FAL's, HiPowers) I have to start somewhere. Unless something unexpected surfaces, I will most likely be bringing this one home.

JTD · 03-31-2012, 08:40 AM

Guy, Sorry for using that old "sneak" word, but it made a quick, searchable reference to era/ model I was refering to.Hard to change, just like the old "black widow ". I also think Dwight is right, that this may be a sleeper, but cannot be judged from pics provided. John

Curly1 · 03-31-2012, 09:30 AM

Welcome to the forums.

Don M · 03-31-2012, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alanint

Those grips don't look plastic to me.......

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dwight Gruber

I agree that the grips look good.

The left grip appears to be missing the upper left corner which suggests it is an original wood grip and that a magazine safety was once installed.

tx_oil · 04-12-2012, 09:15 PM

Ok...I took possession of this Luger today, after a close inspection, and I'm pleased to announce that is is a numbers matching piece. It has the mauser hump, has had a mag safety installed and grip notched, and safety was removed at some pooint later. I will take some good clear close up photos and post for the edification of the knowledgable folks. It has no markings on the toggle, no chamber date, but a serial number under the barrel, and the number has a "u" suffix The grips are wood but so dark they are almost black, no numbers or stamps on the grips at all. I shot it today, and it functioned flawlessly on 115 grain ball ammo.
However, the bullet point of impact is considerably higher than point of aim...about a foot higher at 4 yards, and 2+ feet high at 25 yards. Is there anything I can do to adjust the point of impact with the sights??

mrerick · 04-12-2012, 09:36 PM

Robert,

Your photo doesn't show a pistol with a Mauser hump, and you wouldn't expect to find that on a 1929 pistol. The additional milling was introduced in the late 1930s.

Congratulations on what appears to be a very nice police Luger.

Please take some good sharp pictures taken in indirect sunlight (shaded, outdoors) and let us take a look at the finish and markings.

Odd that it's shooting that far high. What Ammo are you using? Be very careful not to use high velocity (+P or "Nato") grade ammo. Just normal 115gn White Box Winchester or equiv.

A modification to lower point of impact would involve installing a taller front sight, but that would (of course) destroy it's all matching status and collect ability... Of course, so would breaking a numbered part...

The problem may be hold related. Try a six o'clock hold (resting the bull's eye black area on top of the aligned sights) and be sure that you have a solid grip. The recoil of a Luger is different that that you'd feel on other pistols. It may be rocking up as it fires...

Marc

Mike B · 04-12-2012, 10:29 PM

Robert,
Last week I sold a Luger that looks exactely like the one you are inquiring about. I sold it to a gun smith in south Louisiana. He told me he had it sold, but his customer was off shore for a week or so and would take delivery when he returned. You make mention of being off shore. Same Luger???
Mike

tx_oil · 04-13-2012, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike B

Robert,
Last week I sold a Luger that looks exactely like the one you are inquiring about. I sold it to a gun smith in south Louisiana. He told me he had it sold, but his customer was off shore for a week or so and would take delivery when he returned. You make mention of being off shore. Same Luger???
Mike

Was the person who bought your Luger in Lafayette? That is where the shop I bought this gun is located. Would be a heck of a coincidence, yes?

Aaron · 04-13-2012, 08:15 AM

Sometimes if the price is really attractive, you buy first and ask questions later.

tx_oil · 04-13-2012, 10:30 AM

Right side of receiver

Right side of barrel

Under side of barrel, serial number, 'u' suffix and another number beneath.. looks like 882 to my eyes.

mark on top side of left toggle.

another view showing marks on receiver and barrel.

There are no other markings on this pistol, apart from the individually numbered parts. Nothing inside the grips or on the frame, no chamber date or rollmark on top of the toggle link.

Any information is greatly appreciated!

lugersrkewl · 04-13-2012, 12:43 PM

Nice one -congrats.

mrerick · 04-13-2012, 05:20 PM

Hi Robert,

In the picture of the barrel serial number, you'd expect to see slightly lightened "halos" around the stamped serial number digits on an original finish pistol. Not sure if it's the lighting, but those don't appear to be present. Also, the toggle axle retaining pin would normally be in the white on an original finish pistol.

If this was Mike's pistol, he can tell you much more about it than I could from pictures...

The "8.82" is the bore gauge as measured between protruding lands, in mm. It is what you'd expect on a 9mm pistol. The Weimar proof marks are unusual, and quite interesting.

Congratulations on a very nice Luger.

Marc

03-30-2012, 07:42 PM	#1
tx_oil User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 61 Thanks: 8 Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts	"Sneak" Luger Greetings! I am a long time shooter and collector, but a noob to the Luger world. I was offered a Luger at the LGS, and would like opinions as to it's provenance. It is a refinished pistol, no chamber date, plastic grips, no import marks. Bore is VERY good and overall condition is excellent. I was told that it is probably a 'sneak' Luger, without certain proof marks to avoid post WWI arms restrictions. What is the consensus here?? I know it is refinished, that does not matter to me.. I am wanting a decent shooter, not a historical piece. __________________ Invest in precious metals: Lead, Brass and Primers

03-30-2012, 07:51 PM	#2
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	What is an LGS? Some kind of religious group? You need close ups of the markings on the left or right. Read the FAQ and see what it says about 'sneaks' a term I do not fully agree with.... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-30-2012, 08:00 PM	#3
tx_oil User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 61 Thanks: 8 Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts	Sorry about that., LGS= Local Gun Shop These are all the photos I have right now. I(At work offshore) __________________ Invest in precious metals: Lead, Brass and Primers

03-30-2012, 08:22 PM	#4
Edward Tinker Super Moderator Eternal Lifer LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: North of Spokane, WA Posts: 15,909 Thanks: 1,986 Thanked 4,500 Times in 2,076 Posts	Too hard to say, if any markings on the right, then it is probably a weimar era luger. If any crown N on the left, then a commercial. What is the caliber? If 'refinished' then any markings could have been removed, and if refinished, probably here in the USA. Don't believe the 'if it is from the 1920's it is old parts blah, blah.... __________________ Edward Tinker ************ Co-Author of Police Lugers - Co-Author of Simson Lugers Author of Veteran Bring Backs Vol I, Vol II, Vol III and Vol IV

03-30-2012, 09:34 PM	#7
tx_oil User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 61 Thanks: 8 Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts	I personally have not reviewed this pistol.. I am currently offshore at work. I was told that the gun had been refinished, and the fellow at the gun store took and emailed me these pics. I have bought many guns from this store and have NO REASON to doubt the info provided me. I believe the gun is a commercial mutt or mixed number gun, and that is all right with me...just wanting a decent shooter. I do apologize for not being able to provide more info about proof marks, serial numbers, etc...but what kind of price would considered to be fair for this piece? I thank you all for your knowledge and expertise. __________________ Invest in precious metals: Lead, Brass and Primers

03-30-2012, 08:30 PM	#5
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Those grips don't look plastic to me.......

03-30-2012, 09:18 PM	#6
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 424 Thanks: 214 Thanked 407 Times in 148 Posts	Best guess from pics provided is 29 sneak police. proofing on right side of upper recever and barrel, blank toggle, sear safe. Nice crisp edges, are you sure it is refinished? John

03-31-2012, 02:07 AM	#8
Dwight Gruber User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,889 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1,281 Times in 423 Posts	There is no such thing as a sneak Luger. It appears that there is no DWM on the toggle. The gun has a sear safety. The marks on the right are those to be expected on an alphabet DWM/29DWM police Luger. I tried to extract a serial number suffix, it was nearly impossible but it might be u, which would be proper on a gun like this. I agree that the grips look good. From the photos, I would not want to assume that it has been reblued. I think this gun might be a "sleeper." If you can get it for a shooter price, $800 or less, it is probably a good deal. IT might have a story to tell, and it might be worth more, depending. Will they hold it for you until you can get there to examine it? Will they take other pictures for you? Please let us know the outcome of this. --Dwight

03-31-2012, 08:40 AM	#10
JTD User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: PA Posts: 424 Thanks: 214 Thanked 407 Times in 148 Posts	Guy, Sorry for using that old "sneak" word, but it made a quick, searchable reference to era/ model I was refering to.Hard to change, just like the old "black widow ". I also think Dwight is right, that this may be a sleeper, but cannot be judged from pics provided. John

03-31-2012, 09:30 AM	#11
Curly1 User Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Upstate New York Posts: 1,228 Thanks: 111 Thanked 702 Times in 364 Posts	Welcome to the forums. __________________ Laugh hard and often. Gary

04-12-2012, 09:15 PM	#13
tx_oil User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 61 Thanks: 8 Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts	Ok...I took possession of this Luger today, after a close inspection, and I'm pleased to announce that is is a numbers matching piece. It has the mauser hump, has had a mag safety installed and grip notched, and safety was removed at some pooint later. I will take some good clear close up photos and post for the edification of the knowledgable folks. It has no markings on the toggle, no chamber date, but a serial number under the barrel, and the number has a "u" suffix The grips are wood but so dark they are almost black, no numbers or stamps on the grips at all. I shot it today, and it functioned flawlessly on 115 grain ball ammo. However, the bullet point of impact is considerably higher than point of aim...about a foot higher at 4 yards, and 2+ feet high at 25 yards. Is there anything I can do to adjust the point of impact with the sights?? __________________ Invest in precious metals: Lead, Brass and Primers

04-12-2012, 09:36 PM	#14
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Robert, Your photo doesn't show a pistol with a Mauser hump, and you wouldn't expect to find that on a 1929 pistol. The additional milling was introduced in the late 1930s. Congratulations on what appears to be a very nice police Luger. Please take some good sharp pictures taken in indirect sunlight (shaded, outdoors) and let us take a look at the finish and markings. Odd that it's shooting that far high. What Ammo are you using? Be very careful not to use high velocity (+P or "Nato") grade ammo. Just normal 115gn White Box Winchester or equiv. A modification to lower point of impact would involve installing a taller front sight, but that would (of course) destroy it's all matching status and collect ability... Of course, so would breaking a numbered part... The problem may be hold related. Try a six o'clock hold (resting the bull's eye black area on top of the aligned sights) and be sure that you have a solid grip. The recoil of a Luger is different that that you'd feel on other pistols. It may be rocking up as it fires... Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

04-12-2012, 10:29 PM	#15
Mike B Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Louisiana Posts: 979 Thanks: 1 Thanked 271 Times in 99 Posts	Robert, Last week I sold a Luger that looks exactely like the one you are inquiring about. I sold it to a gun smith in south Louisiana. He told me he had it sold, but his customer was off shore for a week or so and would take delivery when he returned. You make mention of being off shore. Same Luger??? Mike

04-13-2012, 08:15 AM	#17
Aaron Banned Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,008 Thanks: 0 Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts	Sometimes if the price is really attractive, you buy first and ask questions later.

04-13-2012, 10:30 AM	#18
tx_oil User Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 61 Thanks: 8 Thanked 18 Times in 13 Posts	Right side of receiver Right side of barrel Under side of barrel, serial number, 'u' suffix and another number beneath.. looks like 882 to my eyes. mark on top side of left toggle. another view showing marks on receiver and barrel. There are no other markings on this pistol, apart from the individually numbered parts. Nothing inside the grips or on the frame, no chamber date or rollmark on top of the toggle link. Any information is greatly appreciated! __________________ Invest in precious metals: Lead, Brass and Primers

04-13-2012, 12:43 PM	#19
lugersrkewl Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Ussr Posts: 425 Thanks: 198 Thanked 75 Times in 58 Posts	Nice one -congrats.

04-13-2012, 05:20 PM	#20
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	Hi Robert, In the picture of the barrel serial number, you'd expect to see slightly lightened "halos" around the stamped serial number digits on an original finish pistol. Not sure if it's the lighting, but those don't appear to be present. Also, the toggle axle retaining pin would normally be in the white on an original finish pistol. If this was Mike's pistol, he can tell you much more about it than I could from pictures... The "8.82" is the bore gauge as measured between protruding lands, in mm. It is what you'd expect on a 9mm pistol. The Weimar proof marks are unusual, and quite interesting. Congratulations on a very nice Luger. Marc __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.