.30 Luger Commercial

saxman · 10-01-2015, 03:00 PM

Belongs to a relative. DWM, .30 cal., 'Germany' on frame under SN, 7033k on barrel and frame, 33 on parts, original grips, traces of paint in GESICHERT, stock lug, period mag with wood bottom, nice bore, looks to be rust blue at about 50%-60%.
I haven't owned a Luger in years and have been out of the loop. What's a year on this and what do you think it's worth?

George Anderson · 10-01-2015, 05:32 PM

1920's $800.

saxman · 10-01-2015, 06:33 PM

Thanks, George. I've never fired a .30 luger so I'm going to take it and the owner to the range one day and see how it does. The 9mm '1920' I once had was very accurate.

saxman · 10-01-2015, 10:30 PM

After more reading, looks like it is a 1923 or so 'alphabet commercial'. I failed to mention earlier that caliber is not marked anywhere on this pistol but it is .30 Luger. Also the barrel length is 98mm, and the 'chamber' ring has been ground clean.

DavidJayUden · 10-01-2015, 10:45 PM

Please elaborate on "chamber ring". Do you mean over the chamber where the date is usually found? Is it really ground clean or never stamped?
dju

alvin · 10-01-2015, 11:06 PM

I just sold one $1200. Much better condition than this, but still take two months to sell... if using that one as a reference, this one should be $400-$500 at most. Of course, market is non-linear, $1000 is a sensitive line for many buyers. Within $1000, it could go high...

saxman · 10-02-2015, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavidJayUden

Please elaborate on "chamber ring". Do you mean over the chamber where the date is usually found? Is it really ground clean or never stamped?
dju

If I remember correctly from years ago, the way to tell the date has been removed is if the ring is slightly thinner on top as viewed from the muzzle. That appears to be the case. I have read that some of these were ex-military issue with markings ground off, refinished and remarked for export. It also seems that some of these were newly-made pistols. It is a big gray area for me.

As to value, we're only looking for insurance value, so the $800 is good enough. I just took a look on GB and found the same model in nicer shape asking $1495, but I noticed the unmarked chamber top was not ground - the 'grain' of the original finishing was still evident. You can see it was altered on mine. I wonder if that affects value.

Sergio Natali · 10-02-2015, 10:22 AM

Saxman

Nice pictures and nice pistol.
Alphabet Commercial Lugers tend to be generally cheaper (but not always) and in much better condition than their military counterparts, no much sought after by collectors, can be an excellent choice as vintage shooters. Replace the mag before you shoot it. Get a "modern" MecGar mag, cheaper and surely safer for range shooting.

Best

Sergio

Lugerdoc · 10-02-2015, 10:25 AM

SM, As mentioned above, the Alphabet commericals started @ 2000 I block, so your's could be made in 1923 or 24. If all matching serials, I believe that it would sell in the $800 range (I'd purchase it for parts in the $500 range), but you may want to insure it for $1,000 replacement value. TH

Dwight Gruber · 10-02-2015, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saxman

If I remember correctly from years ago, the way to tell the date has been removed is if the ring is slightly thinner on top as viewed from the muzzle. That appears to be the case.

Only Old Model Parabellums were made with cylindrical receiver tops. All Lugers manufactured after 1906 are slightly oblate, that is, the top of the receiver is slightly thinner as you describe. This is completely normal.

Receivers from which a date has been removed display different characteristics from this. It is not necessary to remove anywhere near this amount of metal in order to do so.

--Dwight

DonVoigt · 10-02-2015, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saxman

If I remember correctly from years ago, the way to tell the date has been removed is if the ring is slightly thinner on top as viewed from the muzzle. That appears to be the case. I have read that some of these were ex-military issue with markings ground off, refinished and remarked for export. It also seems that some of these were newly-made pistols. It is a big gray area for me.

As to value, we're only looking for insurance value, so the $800 is good enough. I just took a look on GB and found the same model in nicer shape asking $1495, but I noticed the unmarked chamber top was not ground - the 'grain' of the original finishing was still evident. You can see it was altered on mine. I wonder if that affects value.

Yes, it affects the value, negatively.

rhuff · 10-02-2015, 04:16 PM

I agree with Tom, if for insurance purposes, I would insure it for $1000, or perhaps a bit more. As time goes by, these old Lugers don't get any cheaper.

saxman · 10-02-2015, 04:58 PM

I'll get some good pics of that area, because everything else on the pistol indicates that it was made new as a commercial, not rebuilt to be. It would be good to know. BTW, the magazine turns out to be the original. I didn't know it had 'GERMANY' on the wood base until I saw the one on GB then got out the loupe to check.
As for magazines, I had several good new ones when I had the Luger I got from Tom, but sold them after I traded off the Luger for a Hi-Power.

Let me know if you need more/different views - I have a few more shots.

mrerick · 10-02-2015, 05:09 PM

DWM Alphabet commercial pistols were normally NOT stamped with a date above the chamber. Here's the same area on mine, from a block made just after yours... Same Profile...

DonVoigt · 10-02-2015, 05:15 PM

I see no signs anything has been removed from your chamber.
It appears you have what you thought, a commercial pistol.

saxman · 10-02-2015, 05:18 PM

True, but according to what I found, some dated pistols were modified to remove the date in the process of manufacturing the export pistols. After seeing my own pictures it certainly looks like nothing was ever there. I guess I need new glasses or something - I never saw the 'GERMANY' stamp on the frame until I looked at the blow-up. Pictures like this on a large LCD monitor are great for old eyes - very revealing. I used the flash on purpose to cut through the finish and expose any irregularity. An LED flashlight does the same thing - very handy in the gun safe or at the gun show.

saxman · 10-02-2015, 05:25 PM

Good. That's settled.

saxman · 10-03-2015, 11:26 PM

It cleaned up very nicely today with Ballistol. I found some gunk in the recoil spring that I believe was the original grease. I'm sure the pistol had never been detail stripped and it still hasn't.

Thanks to everyone's input and Dwight's stickies on the Alphabet Commercial, I was able to prepare a report on the pistol to keep with it.

10-01-2015, 03:00 PM	#1
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	.30 Luger Commercial Belongs to a relative. DWM, .30 cal., 'Germany' on frame under SN, 7033k on barrel and frame, 33 on parts, original grips, traces of paint in GESICHERT, stock lug, period mag with wood bottom, nice bore, looks to be rust blue at about 50%-60%. I haven't owned a Luger in years and have been out of the loop. What's a year on this and what do you think it's worth? __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

10-01-2015, 06:33 PM	#3
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Thanks, George. I've never fired a .30 luger so I'm going to take it and the owner to the range one day and see how it does. The 9mm '1920' I once had was very accurate. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

10-01-2015, 10:30 PM	#4
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	After more reading, looks like it is a 1923 or so 'alphabet commercial'. I failed to mention earlier that caliber is not marked anywhere on this pistol but it is .30 Luger. Also the barrel length is 98mm, and the 'chamber' ring has been ground clean. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

10-02-2015, 10:22 AM	#8
Sergio Natali User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Somewhere in Northern Italy Posts: 2,646 Thanks: 1,082 Thanked 1,783 Times in 1,007 Posts	Saxman Nice pictures and nice pistol. Alphabet Commercial Lugers tend to be generally cheaper (but not always) and in much better condition than their military counterparts, no much sought after by collectors, can be an excellent choice as vintage shooters. Replace the mag before you shoot it. Get a "modern" MecGar mag, cheaper and surely safer for range shooting. Best Sergio __________________ "Originality can't be restored and should be at the top of any collector's priority list.

10-02-2015, 10:25 AM	#9
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	SM, As mentioned above, the Alphabet commericals started @ 2000 I block, so your's could be made in 1923 or 24. If all matching serials, I believe that it would sell in the $800 range (I'd purchase it for parts in the $500 range), but you may want to insure it for $1,000 replacement value. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

10-01-2015, 05:32 PM	#2
George Anderson Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: VA Posts: 3,592 Thanks: 1,769 Thanked 2,527 Times in 786 Posts	1920's $800.

10-01-2015, 10:45 PM	#5
DavidJayUden Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 4,047 Thanks: 578 Thanked 1,414 Times in 887 Posts	Please elaborate on "chamber ring". Do you mean over the chamber where the date is usually found? Is it really ground clean or never stamped? dju

10-01-2015, 11:06 PM	#6
alvin User Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: US Posts: 3,843 Thanks: 132 Thanked 729 Times in 438 Posts	I just sold one $1200. Much better condition than this, but still take two months to sell... if using that one as a reference, this one should be $400-$500 at most. Of course, market is non-linear, $1000 is a sensitive line for many buyers. Within $1000, it could go high...

10-02-2015, 04:16 PM	#12
rhuff Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Az. Posts: 2,270 Thanks: 2,686 Thanked 958 Times in 704 Posts	I agree with Tom, if for insurance purposes, I would insure it for $1000, or perhaps a bit more. As time goes by, these old Lugers don't get any cheaper.

10-02-2015, 04:58 PM	#13
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	I'll get some good pics of that area, because everything else on the pistol indicates that it was made new as a commercial, not rebuilt to be. It would be good to know. BTW, the magazine turns out to be the original. I didn't know it had 'GERMANY' on the wood base until I saw the one on GB then got out the loupe to check. As for magazines, I had several good new ones when I had the Luger I got from Tom, but sold them after I traded off the Luger for a Hi-Power. Let me know if you need more/different views - I have a few more shots. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

10-02-2015, 05:09 PM	#14
mrerick Super Moderator - Patron LugerForum Life Patron Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Eastern North Carolina, USA Posts: 3,900 Thanks: 1,370 Thanked 3,094 Times in 1,503 Posts	DWM Alphabet commercial pistols were normally NOT stamped with a date above the chamber. Here's the same area on mine, from a block made just after yours... Same Profile... Attached Thumbnails __________________ Igitur si vis pacem, para bellum - - Therefore if you want peace, prepare for war.

10-02-2015, 05:15 PM	#15
DonVoigt User Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: near Charlotte NC Posts: 4,677 Thanks: 1,439 Thanked 4,347 Times in 2,038 Posts	I see no signs anything has been removed from your chamber. It appears you have what you thought, a commercial pistol.

10-02-2015, 05:18 PM	#16
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	True, but according to what I found, some dated pistols were modified to remove the date in the process of manufacturing the export pistols. After seeing my own pictures it certainly looks like nothing was ever there. I guess I need new glasses or something - I never saw the 'GERMANY' stamp on the frame until I looked at the blow-up. Pictures like this on a large LCD monitor are great for old eyes - very revealing. I used the flash on purpose to cut through the finish and expose any irregularity. An LED flashlight does the same thing - very handy in the gun safe or at the gun show. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

10-02-2015, 05:25 PM	#17
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	Good. That's settled. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink.

10-03-2015, 11:26 PM	#18
saxman User Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 301 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	It cleaned up very nicely today with Ballistol. I found some gunk in the recoil spring that I believe was the original grease. I'm sure the pistol had never been detail stripped and it still hasn't. Thanks to everyone's input and Dwight's stickies on the Alphabet Commercial, I was able to prepare a report on the pistol to keep with it. __________________ You can lead 'em to the water, but you can't make 'em drink. Last edited by saxman; 10-04-2015 at 12:07 PM.