"Mystery" commercial luger

drbuster · 04-17-2011, 08:34 PM

Several of my collecting friends amd myself have been going over this recently acquired luger. It has several interesting features that generated some discussion. I have posted several photos of this piece for comments and discussion as we wouold like to hear more opinions. It is in 9mm. Check the magazine...Germany is marked near the top on the rear spine.

drbuster · 04-17-2011, 08:38 PM

More views...

drbuster · 04-17-2011, 09:09 PM

Ty, completely understood. I guess one of the problems is that the pseudo-experts think they can tell all from a photograph. Also, if they have never seen one, then it cannot exist and must be faked!

lugerholsterrepair · 04-17-2011, 11:30 PM

Ty.. I know a guy that is an expert in this and will forward it to him, LIKE all real Luger experts, WE stay FAR away from forums. I mean you never seen John Walter, or Fred Datiq on here have you, that goes with saying,

My Father always said an expert is a fellow from out of town with a briefcase...

Which are you? out of town or with a briefcase?

A 2nd post and you are disparaging the fine people who come here to learn and those who give opinions?

WE stay FAR away from forums. Why are you here?

drbuster · 04-18-2011, 12:09 AM

Jerry, I think Ty is referring to the likes of other folks who slam things on the Forum before they accept that it just might be real. I'm sure he didn't include people of extreme integrity and knowledge like you cetainly are in his remarks above.

lugerholsterrepair · 04-18-2011, 12:49 AM

Herb, I don't know who or what he might be referring to as this is his second post..he is slamming this very Forum and it's members and secondly wanting to discuss it OFF the Forum!
I welcome every new member but he seems like a disagreeable sort. Declaring he is one of the select few experts who stay's FAR away from forums? It's no wonder with such an attitude.

I have said my piece about this fellow and we can get onto discussing your Luger.

Edward Tinker · 04-18-2011, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by borzellot

Well this is a superior example of one of the few 9mm's that were produced commercially. I know a guy that is an expert in this and will forward it to him, LIKE all real Luger experts, WE stay FAR away from forums. I mean you never seen John Walter, or Fred Datiq on here have you, that goes with saying, I will talk to you personally.

Ok, that is a weird thing to say?

So, experts don't visit forums. Please name some experts that are up-to-date?

Forums are another way to keep in the loop and learn.

Yes forums can be like a clique but a good forum shares information.

I believe we have a good handful of experts here on the forum, several authors, and many people who are quoted and their guns, holsters etc used in many books.

Jan Still is a member of this forum and runs a forum on gunboards. Most folks would say that his books are some of the best on lugers? What do you think Ty?

My feeling on authors who don't post on forums are;

1. They are afraid folks will steal their information
2. They are afraid they will receive constant emails and PM's asking questions (sure, but then you refer them to the forum)
3. That they are 'older' and afraid of computers. I see this all the time....

Ed

alanint · 04-18-2011, 06:18 AM

Ed,

I would also include, "not generally up to date on the latest Luger findings" for people who don't visit forums and only rely on their books.

drbuster · 04-18-2011, 09:57 AM

Appreciate all the opinions of reputation of Forum visitors, etc., and this is a discussion in itself. Would like more discussion on this luger.

SIGP2101 · 04-18-2011, 03:05 PM

Can someone explain to me why # font on the frame is different than font on the plate and barrel? Is such occurrence normal for matching Lugers of that particular vintage?

drbuster · 04-18-2011, 03:41 PM

Joe, we apparently have an early 9mm commercial luger made in the first part of the 1930's, using a Mauser frame (Mauser fonts) matched with a left over DWM side plate and barrel. This is an unusual piece and was perhaps made earlier than one proofed with C/C/U. Also, this piece was most likely made in 9mm as a violation of the WW1 treaty. Note the DWM commercial C/N proofs, but a Mauser frame (see above) that may have been drawn from a G date frame.

Norme · 04-18-2011, 03:45 PM

Hi Joe, You shouldn't read to much into Mauser fonts. They were an enormous plant and must have had scores of die sets in use at any one time. Mixed fonts are common. Regards, Norm

Lugerdoc · 04-19-2011, 11:48 AM

The matching military inspected swe/63 would have to be post 1936. Due to the DWM toggle and lack of military acceptance, I suspect that this is a rework of some kind. TH

drbuster · 04-24-2011, 11:43 AM

I have belatedly realized that I blundered in saying this pistol is 9mm, it is NOT! It is in 30 luger (7.65mm). Was wondering if any opinions or comments may change knowing this fact that I should have divulged originally.

Vlim · 04-24-2011, 07:45 PM

Quote:

I mean you never seen John Walter, or Fred Datiq on here have you

Since they are both dead, it would personally surprise me very much to see them posting here on this forum.

Would be nice if they did, though

Anyway mr 'Borzellot' is yet another incarnation of a well known trouble maker. His account will not be active for long.

drbuster · 04-24-2011, 09:43 PM

Vlim, where did you get your information about Fred Datig being dead? He lives in southern California and I'm certain I would have heard of his demise. I'm not certain about John Walter but pretty certain about Fred Datig. Anybody out there have more current information?

Norme · 04-24-2011, 09:59 PM

When Borzelot made his post I actually googled Fred Datig. There was no mention of his demise. He was born in 1925 and has a very interesting biography, well worth a few minutes research. I have no info on John Walter. Regards, Norm

Jan C Still · 04-25-2011, 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by borzellot
"Well this is a superior example of one of the few 9mm's that were produced commercially. I know a guy that is an expert in this and will forward it to him, LIKE all real Luger experts, WE stay FAR away from forums. I mean you never seen John Walter, or Fred Datiq on here have you, that goes with saying, I will talk to you personally"

The above statement is an intentional insult to the all the well respected members of this Forum.

Does anyone know who or what borzellot is? Perhaps drbuster does?
Jan

John Sabato · 04-25-2011, 08:08 AM

Jan,

Borzellot has been banned. He is a troll that had made similar stupid and direspectful comments in the past under many different bogus registration identities. He just keeps coming back to be a nuisance...

Since your forum and ours share some moderators, we are well acquainted with him, and can generally nail him as soon as he posts. Thanks for your comments, and remain confident that the other moderators and I will remain vigilant both here, and on your Axis Pistols forum...

kind regards,

-John

Vlim · 04-25-2011, 08:24 AM

It would be a happy surprise to learn that Fred Datig is still among us. Basically, his writing career seems to have stopped in the early 1990s. He had planned a 7-book series on the history of the Swiss Luger, of which only 2 were published. Add to that the fact that his earliest books were written in the 1950s and that he served during WW2, combined with a very low profile for many years, it is hard to reach another conclusion, really?

If I understand correctly, his son, who bears the same name, is in his seventies also.

John Walter had a good working relationship with a mutual friend, who confirmed this a couple of years ago.

04-17-2011, 08:34 PM	#1
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	"Mystery" commercial luger Several of my collecting friends amd myself have been going over this recently acquired luger. It has several interesting features that generated some discussion. I have posted several photos of this piece for comments and discussion as we wouold like to hear more opinions. It is in 9mm. Check the magazine...Germany is marked near the top on the rear spine. Attached Thumbnails

04-17-2011, 08:38 PM	#2
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	More views... Attached Thumbnails Attached Images

04-17-2011, 11:30 PM	#4
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Ty.. I know a guy that is an expert in this and will forward it to him, LIKE all real Luger experts, WE stay FAR away from forums. I mean you never seen John Walter, or Fred Datiq on here have you, that goes with saying, My Father always said an expert is a fellow from out of town with a briefcase... Which are you? out of town or with a briefcase? A 2nd post and you are disparaging the fine people who come here to learn and those who give opinions? WE stay FAR away from forums. Why are you here? __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-18-2011, 12:49 AM	#6
lugerholsterrepair Moderator Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Arizona/Colorado Posts: 7,760 Thanks: 4,848 Thanked 3,099 Times in 1,426 Posts	Herb, I don't know who or what he might be referring to as this is his second post..he is slamming this very Forum and it's members and secondly wanting to discuss it OFF the Forum! I welcome every new member but he seems like a disagreeable sort. Declaring he is one of the select few experts who stay's FAR away from forums? It's no wonder with such an attitude. I have said my piece about this fellow and we can get onto discussing your Luger. __________________ Jerry Burney 11491 S. Guadalupe Drive Yuma AZ 85367-6182 lugerholsterrepair@earthlink.net 928 342-7583 (CO & AZ) Year Round 719 207-3331 (cell) "For those who Fight For It, Life has a flavor the protected will never know."

04-18-2011, 03:45 PM	#12
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	Hi Joe, You shouldn't read to much into Mauser fonts. They were an enormous plant and must have had scores of die sets in use at any one time. Mixed fonts are common. Regards, Norm Attached Thumbnails

04-17-2011, 09:09 PM	#3
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Ty, completely understood. I guess one of the problems is that the pseudo-experts think they can tell all from a photograph. Also, if they have never seen one, then it cannot exist and must be faked!

04-18-2011, 12:09 AM	#5
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Jerry, I think Ty is referring to the likes of other folks who slam things on the Forum before they accept that it just might be real. I'm sure he didn't include people of extreme integrity and knowledge like you cetainly are in his remarks above.

04-18-2011, 06:18 AM	#8
alanint User Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Marco Island, Florida Posts: 4,867 Thanks: 1,685 Thanked 1,916 Times in 1,192 Posts	Ed, I would also include, "not generally up to date on the latest Luger findings" for people who don't visit forums and only rely on their books.

04-18-2011, 09:57 AM	#9
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Appreciate all the opinions of reputation of Forum visitors, etc., and this is a discussion in itself. Would like more discussion on this luger.

04-18-2011, 03:05 PM	#10
SIGP2101 User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Canada Posts: 256 Thanks: 74 Thanked 67 Times in 32 Posts	Can someone explain to me why # font on the frame is different than font on the plate and barrel? Is such occurrence normal for matching Lugers of that particular vintage?

04-18-2011, 03:41 PM	#11
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Joe, we apparently have an early 9mm commercial luger made in the first part of the 1930's, using a Mauser frame (Mauser fonts) matched with a left over DWM side plate and barrel. This is an unusual piece and was perhaps made earlier than one proofed with C/C/U. Also, this piece was most likely made in 9mm as a violation of the WW1 treaty. Note the DWM commercial C/N proofs, but a Mauser frame (see above) that may have been drawn from a G date frame.

04-19-2011, 11:48 AM	#13
Lugerdoc Patron LugerForum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: POB 398 St.Charles,MO. 63302 Posts: 5,089 Thanks: 6 Thanked 736 Times in 483 Posts	The matching military inspected swe/63 would have to be post 1936. Due to the DWM toggle and lack of military acceptance, I suspect that this is a rework of some kind. TH __________________ Tom Heller POB 398 ST.Charles, MO. 63302 Tel 636-447-3006 lugerdoc@charter.net

04-24-2011, 11:43 AM	#14
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	I have belatedly realized that I blundered in saying this pistol is 9mm, it is NOT! It is in 30 luger (7.65mm). Was wondering if any opinions or comments may change knowing this fact that I should have divulged originally.

04-24-2011, 09:43 PM	#16
drbuster User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: San Mateo, California Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 2 Thanked 71 Times in 56 Posts	Vlim, where did you get your information about Fred Datig being dead? He lives in southern California and I'm certain I would have heard of his demise. I'm not certain about John Walter but pretty certain about Fred Datig. Anybody out there have more current information?

04-24-2011, 09:59 PM	#17
Norme Always A Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Colorado Posts: 2,414 Thanks: 224 Thanked 2,591 Times in 930 Posts	When Borzelot made his post I actually googled Fred Datig. There was no mention of his demise. He was born in 1925 and has a very interesting biography, well worth a few minutes research. I have no info on John Walter. Regards, Norm

04-25-2011, 03:29 AM	#18
Jan C Still User Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Box 240188, Douglas, Alaska, 99824 Posts: 463 Thanks: 0 Thanked 52 Times in 32 Posts	Originally Posted by borzellot "Well this is a superior example of one of the few 9mm's that were produced commercially. I know a guy that is an expert in this and will forward it to him, LIKE all real Luger experts, WE stay FAR away from forums. I mean you never seen John Walter, or Fred Datiq on here have you, that goes with saying, I will talk to you personally" The above statement is an intentional insult to the all the well respected members of this Forum. Does anyone know who or what borzellot is? Perhaps drbuster does? Jan

04-25-2011, 08:08 AM	#19
John Sabato Lifer Lifetime Forum Patron Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: The Capital of the Free World Posts: 10,150 Thanks: 3,003 Thanked 2,304 Times in 1,096 Posts	Jan, Borzellot has been banned. He is a troll that had made similar stupid and direspectful comments in the past under many different bogus registration identities. He just keeps coming back to be a nuisance... Since your forum and ours share some moderators, we are well acquainted with him, and can generally nail him as soon as he posts. Thanks for your comments, and remain confident that the other moderators and I will remain vigilant both here, and on your Axis Pistols forum... kind regards, -John

04-25-2011, 08:24 AM	#20
Vlim Moderator Lifetime LugerForum Patron Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Europe Posts: 5,032 Thanks: 1,018 Thanked 3,873 Times in 1,184 Posts	It would be a happy surprise to learn that Fred Datig is still among us. Basically, his writing career seems to have stopped in the early 1990s. He had planned a 7-book series on the history of the Swiss Luger, of which only 2 were published. Add to that the fact that his earliest books were written in the 1950s and that he served during WW2, combined with a very low profile for many years, it is hard to reach another conclusion, really? If I understand correctly, his son, who bears the same name, is in his seventies also. John Walter had a good working relationship with a mutual friend, who confirmed this a couple of years ago.